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General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Why are paladins so dumb?
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<blockquote data-quote="ConcreteBuddha" data-source="post: 153414" data-attributes="member: 3139"><p>Long Post; Beware...</p><p></p><p></p><p>"1) wow, that would make INT mighty similar to CHA then, wouldn't it? </p><p>Because I NEVER see almost every class dumping their low stat in CHA.... "</p><p></p><p>And if the player does not suffer consequences from having a low Charisma, that is the fault of the DM for not taking a clue that NPC interaction can make or break a campaign just as easily as doing 112 points of damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Having a 'low' INT (8) is a handicap - it affects your skill point disbursement and it's your primary stat for ELEVEN skills! </p><p>(BTW: that's more than any other stat : INT affects 11 skills, WIS 8, CHA 9, STR 3, DEX 9, CON 1) "</p><p></p><p>But that is ALL intellegence is good for: skill points. Are you seriously trying to tell me that having a 'low' Con is not as debilitating or even moreso? </p><p></p><p>It affects only one skill, but it also affects two other extremely important characteristics: Will Saves and Hit Points. I would think that that just *might* make up for Con only affecting Concentration. (Tongue in cheek.) </p><p></p><p>Should every 'low' ability score suffer a handicap? </p><p></p><p>Yes. </p><p></p><p>Hence the point of 'low' score...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>"3) Go ahead and make a paladin with 10 WIS and CHA, and you can happily be a 'role-player'"</p><p></p><p>Accusing me of being a "role-player" is not an effective way of undermining my argument.</p><p></p><p>I could have easily said, "Have fun playing your Munchkin Cheeseball Twink Fighter Spiked Chain Combat Reflexes Psionic Warrior Standstill with a 42 Strength!", and it would not have hurt your position in the least.</p><p></p><p>There are three points made here that I contested:</p><p></p><p></p><p><em> (1) Paladins are broken because they have too many "ability score requirements." </em></p><p></p><p>An "effective" Paladin can exist with lower than ideal ability scores, as long as all of the characters have lower than ideal ability scores, and each low ability score for each character hurts the PC in some way.</p><p></p><p>Also, because a Paladin gets a myriad of abilities, 'high' ability scores really aren't necessary in all stats.</p><p></p><p>Example: Consider a Paladin with a 3 Charisma and a 14 Wisdom.</p><p></p><p>You say, "How can a Paladin possibly be 'effective' with only a 3 Charisma? EVERY Paladin NEEDS a high Charisma! That is the bread and butter of Paladins!"</p><p></p><p>I will compare him to a Fighter with a 3 Charisma.</p><p></p><p>Same Skill Points, Weapons, Armor, HD and Saves.</p><p></p><p>Different Class Skills, but not different enough to alter the scales.</p><p></p><p>Fighter: 11 feats + Specialization Option</p><p></p><p>Paladin: Spells + Mount + Remove Disease + Smite Evil + Aura of Courage + Detect Evil + Divine Health - Code of Conduct - Associates</p><p></p><p>I would say Remove Disease, Divine Health, Smite Evil, Aura of Courage, and Detect Evil are worth one feat each, on average. </p><p></p><p>Code of Conduct and Associates are really easy to maintain, however, for sake of argument, I'll give them one negative feat each.</p><p></p><p>5 Feats - 2 feats = 3 Feats</p><p></p><p>3 Feats + Spells + Mount = 11 Feats + Specialization</p><p></p><p>Spells + Mount = 8 Feats + Specialization</p><p></p><p>I would propose that Spells are worth 7 feats and a Mount is worth 1 feat and Specialization.</p><p></p><p>IMHO, they are balanced when they both have a 3 Charisma.</p><p></p><p>Therefore, they must be balanced at higher Charisma ability scores, because a Fighter gets less benefit than a Paladin from Charisma.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p><em> (2) It's broken that Paladins only get 2 skill points/level </em></p><p></p><p>"4) Adding more skills or even feats doesn't break this sacred cow called "balance" any more than granting boatloads of magic to the mages unbalances things in 3E."</p><p></p><p>If you increase the number of skill points a Paladin gets from 2 to 4, and you increase a Rogue's skill points from 8 to 10, you have just nerfed the Rogue.</p><p></p><p>Assuming a 10 Int:</p><p></p><p>You just increased the amount of skill points available to a Paladin by 100%. (2--->4)</p><p></p><p>While you only increased the number of skill points to the Rogue by 25%. (8--->10)</p><p></p><p>And you may say, "Well let's just double the number of skill points a Rogue gets from 8 to 16!"</p><p></p><p>This doesn't actually fix anything, however, because Rogues don't need that many new skills (We're talking 16 maxed class skills), since not all skills are created equally. </p><p></p><p>Ranks in Profession (Farmer) or Forgery really aren't as useful as Spot or Listen.</p><p></p><p>My point is this: if you increase the number of skill points to all classes, the classes with low amounts of skill points benefit more than the classes with more skill points. </p><p></p><p>This has to be balanced in some way to make the game fun for all classes to play. </p><p></p><p>With increased skill points, you also decrease the value of Intellegence as an Ability Score. </p><p></p><p>See below for a critique on that.</p><p></p><p><em> (3) It's broken that Intellegence affects skill point acquisition. </em></p><p></p><p>"As it is, I see no particular reason why WotC made INT as the stat that affects skills. </p><p>Look around - I don't see smart people with more ability inherently to see better, listen better, sense someone's true intention, etc, etc. "</p><p></p><p>If you mean "Smart as in IQ" then, yes I agree with you. Many "booksmart" people aren't adept at the above skills. </p><p></p><p>(Even though they might not have Spot, Listen or Sense Motive as class skills...but that is a different argument.) <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>However, that is not the definition of intellegence in the PHB.</p><p></p><p>"Intellegence determines how well your character learns and reasons." PHB pg 8</p><p></p><p>In the game: Intellegent = Fast Learner = More Skill Points.</p><p></p><p>"2) That's the way it's always been. </p><p>CHA is just as useless, if not more so for many characters."</p><p></p><p>I disagree. It used to be that Int WAS worthless for ANY character (other than a Wizard). Now they have changed it so Intellegence is SLIGHTLY useful for all characters. Same as Charisma. </p><p></p><p>If you increase the # of skill points available for each class, you decrease the effectiveness of Intellegence. Do you want to make Intellegence even more worthless?</p><p></p><p></p><p>"Until D&D stops letting magic accomplish everything that any character can ever possibly do, I'll not sweat microscopic balance changes like what I (and many others) proposed."</p><p></p><p>It sounds like you have a bigger gripe with magic than with skills. Fix magic then, not skills.</p><p></p><p>And please make it balanced.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>P.S. Although, I don't necessarily agree with the "Magic accomplishes everything that any character can ever possibly do."</p><p></p><p>P.P.S. Oh yeah, and just because "many others" proposed it, doesn't mean it's good. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ConcreteBuddha, post: 153414, member: 3139"] Long Post; Beware... "1) wow, that would make INT mighty similar to CHA then, wouldn't it? Because I NEVER see almost every class dumping their low stat in CHA.... " And if the player does not suffer consequences from having a low Charisma, that is the fault of the DM for not taking a clue that NPC interaction can make or break a campaign just as easily as doing 112 points of damage. "Having a 'low' INT (8) is a handicap - it affects your skill point disbursement and it's your primary stat for ELEVEN skills! (BTW: that's more than any other stat : INT affects 11 skills, WIS 8, CHA 9, STR 3, DEX 9, CON 1) " But that is ALL intellegence is good for: skill points. Are you seriously trying to tell me that having a 'low' Con is not as debilitating or even moreso? It affects only one skill, but it also affects two other extremely important characteristics: Will Saves and Hit Points. I would think that that just *might* make up for Con only affecting Concentration. (Tongue in cheek.) Should every 'low' ability score suffer a handicap? Yes. Hence the point of 'low' score... "3) Go ahead and make a paladin with 10 WIS and CHA, and you can happily be a 'role-player'" Accusing me of being a "role-player" is not an effective way of undermining my argument. I could have easily said, "Have fun playing your Munchkin Cheeseball Twink Fighter Spiked Chain Combat Reflexes Psionic Warrior Standstill with a 42 Strength!", and it would not have hurt your position in the least. There are three points made here that I contested: [I] (1) Paladins are broken because they have too many "ability score requirements." [/I] An "effective" Paladin can exist with lower than ideal ability scores, as long as all of the characters have lower than ideal ability scores, and each low ability score for each character hurts the PC in some way. Also, because a Paladin gets a myriad of abilities, 'high' ability scores really aren't necessary in all stats. Example: Consider a Paladin with a 3 Charisma and a 14 Wisdom. You say, "How can a Paladin possibly be 'effective' with only a 3 Charisma? EVERY Paladin NEEDS a high Charisma! That is the bread and butter of Paladins!" I will compare him to a Fighter with a 3 Charisma. Same Skill Points, Weapons, Armor, HD and Saves. Different Class Skills, but not different enough to alter the scales. Fighter: 11 feats + Specialization Option Paladin: Spells + Mount + Remove Disease + Smite Evil + Aura of Courage + Detect Evil + Divine Health - Code of Conduct - Associates I would say Remove Disease, Divine Health, Smite Evil, Aura of Courage, and Detect Evil are worth one feat each, on average. Code of Conduct and Associates are really easy to maintain, however, for sake of argument, I'll give them one negative feat each. 5 Feats - 2 feats = 3 Feats 3 Feats + Spells + Mount = 11 Feats + Specialization Spells + Mount = 8 Feats + Specialization I would propose that Spells are worth 7 feats and a Mount is worth 1 feat and Specialization. IMHO, they are balanced when they both have a 3 Charisma. Therefore, they must be balanced at higher Charisma ability scores, because a Fighter gets less benefit than a Paladin from Charisma. [I] (2) It's broken that Paladins only get 2 skill points/level [/I] "4) Adding more skills or even feats doesn't break this sacred cow called "balance" any more than granting boatloads of magic to the mages unbalances things in 3E." If you increase the number of skill points a Paladin gets from 2 to 4, and you increase a Rogue's skill points from 8 to 10, you have just nerfed the Rogue. Assuming a 10 Int: You just increased the amount of skill points available to a Paladin by 100%. (2--->4) While you only increased the number of skill points to the Rogue by 25%. (8--->10) And you may say, "Well let's just double the number of skill points a Rogue gets from 8 to 16!" This doesn't actually fix anything, however, because Rogues don't need that many new skills (We're talking 16 maxed class skills), since not all skills are created equally. Ranks in Profession (Farmer) or Forgery really aren't as useful as Spot or Listen. My point is this: if you increase the number of skill points to all classes, the classes with low amounts of skill points benefit more than the classes with more skill points. This has to be balanced in some way to make the game fun for all classes to play. With increased skill points, you also decrease the value of Intellegence as an Ability Score. See below for a critique on that. [I] (3) It's broken that Intellegence affects skill point acquisition. [/I] "As it is, I see no particular reason why WotC made INT as the stat that affects skills. Look around - I don't see smart people with more ability inherently to see better, listen better, sense someone's true intention, etc, etc. " If you mean "Smart as in IQ" then, yes I agree with you. Many "booksmart" people aren't adept at the above skills. (Even though they might not have Spot, Listen or Sense Motive as class skills...but that is a different argument.) ;) However, that is not the definition of intellegence in the PHB. "Intellegence determines how well your character learns and reasons." PHB pg 8 In the game: Intellegent = Fast Learner = More Skill Points. "2) That's the way it's always been. CHA is just as useless, if not more so for many characters." I disagree. It used to be that Int WAS worthless for ANY character (other than a Wizard). Now they have changed it so Intellegence is SLIGHTLY useful for all characters. Same as Charisma. If you increase the # of skill points available for each class, you decrease the effectiveness of Intellegence. Do you want to make Intellegence even more worthless? "Until D&D stops letting magic accomplish everything that any character can ever possibly do, I'll not sweat microscopic balance changes like what I (and many others) proposed." It sounds like you have a bigger gripe with magic than with skills. Fix magic then, not skills. And please make it balanced. P.S. Although, I don't necessarily agree with the "Magic accomplishes everything that any character can ever possibly do." P.P.S. Oh yeah, and just because "many others" proposed it, doesn't mean it's good. ;) [/QUOTE]
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