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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ConcreteBuddha" data-source="post: 153764" data-attributes="member: 3139">"Someone with divine grace isn't going to fail a fear save," The character I mentioned didn't have divine grace, because of the 3 Charisma.Great Wyrm Red Dragon Fear DC = 38.I think that Fighter may like that feat. "Specialization is +2 damage on every attack against every monster, every minute of every day. Smite evil is insignificant in comparison."True, if that was a fair comparison. Specialization is one of the best feats out there, this one ranks with Ki Shout or the equivalent."Remove disease, this is a cleric spell. You don't need to be immune if you can be cured. Spending a feat isn't even required to have this ability."I was comparing a fighter.And I think it's pretty obvious that Remove Disease is for everyone else in the party."Innate spell, you can now detect evil at will for the rest of your life without any code restrictions for the cost of 1 8th level slot. Most people would consider this a waste of a feat however."Fighter. Besides, waste of a feat for a Fighter? Because Mobility is SO much more useful. BTW, you are one person, not "Most People.""I contend you can buy (with treasure) almost any skill so whether you get 2 or 20 skill points per level, it makes little practical difference."Then why give them more skill points if it's SO easy to get treasure and buy skill point items?"How is a DM not going to let you come up with an idea? Make you tell another player so their character can have the idea?"Um, Stupid Character = Stupid Character. That is what a low intellegence means. That's why you roleplay a low intellegence."Cha is a dump stat because someone else has the high charisma."And you walk into town ever? You never interact with any NPCs? You never talk? "A character is effective when they do their thing better. If you already have the worst X in the party it hardly matters if your weak ability is even weaker."Disagree with that version of effectiveness. That only works in "perfect" DnD where a Fighter, Cleric, Mage and Rogue all decide to adventure together in "perfect happy DnD land" where the mage never uses anything but cast spells, the fighter never talks, the cleric never does acrobatics, or the rogue never tanks.Effectiveness to me is being able to do one thing really well, but not at the expense of being horrible in everything else."If you value spells so highly you play a cleric instead of a fighter. The cleric certainly doesn't have any less fighting ability."I compared a fighter. A Fighter is a fair comparison to a Paladin. A Cleric is not. "Most of the spells you mention are worthless when the paladin casts them as his caster level is so low compared to a real caster."Define worthless. Define "real" caster. (I'm assuming you mean Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, Druid). Please explain why the power level of a FIGHTER is dependent on another class, while this is not true of a Paladin."If you can't live without a paladin spell, get it added to your weapon, usable 1x/day. It only costs a little money, not something valuable like a feat."If your DM lets all magic items be instantly available and he never takes or sunders items, then obviously, I will buy whatever I want."If you value the paladin spell list as 7 feats then you'd value a wizard/sorceror/cleric at 25 feats."I don't really understand your point here. "I play a paladin with only 2 levels of paladin, because paladin levels suck."Suck compared to what?"Fighter, templar, divine champion and windrider are all far superior."Three are PrC, and one I have already shown is NOT superior, it is balanced with a Paladin."I just have my sword cast holy sword and save the trouble of having to have 16 paladin levels to do the same thing."Man, I just wasted 16 levels of Paladin, and I only got the second best hit die, 4th level spells, an awesome mount, and the best BAB. I would have been so much more powerful if I had been a Fighter and had my sword cast Holy Sword! (Why and how does your sword have this ability and why can't a Paladin have an equivalently powerful weapon?) And joy! I also wasted these extra feats in Point Blank Shot and Great Cleave!"It costs 20k gcs but that is a small price to pay to save 14 character levels."Yep, because Holy Sword is the only saving grace of a 20th level Paladin."I think every class needs more skill points."I'm not arguing against that, I'm arguing against giving more skill points without balancing it first."Most rogues I see near equal the fighters in combat."Those are single-classed Rogues I presume?And all of the enemies in your campaign use cover, concealment, are immune to critical hits, have armor of fortification, have regeneration, reach, or heaven forbid, attacks the ROGUE instead of the Fighter!"Yet out of combat the fighter, and the paladin just suck beyond belief."Yup, that's what happens when you get the second best hit points, best BAB and lots of nifty abilities to go with it.What does the Rogue get?Um...sneak attack and skills.And man, it really sucks getting all of those feats as a fighter. Maybe I should try...um...Skill Focus? (The +3 kind) Alertness? All of the other <+2 this +2 that> feats."Fighter types are only balanced in games where you run from fight to fight."Hence: "Fighter"Yup, and Rogues are GREAT in those types of games.I think you just hit on the idea that not every class is good at everything. And the Fighter is supposed to suck outside of combat.Does it suck to have crappy skill points? Yes.Does it suck to not get zillions of feats? Yes.But if the Rogue is really more "powerful-efficient" than the Fighter, I truly expect everyone to be playing Single-Class Rogue Tanks next gaming session. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

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