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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lord Pendragon" data-source="post: 155062" data-attributes="member: 707">ConcreteBuddha:  It's really hard to follow the train of thought in your recent posts.  You might consider quoting the text you're replying to, then writing out a paragraph response.  I'm not slamming you or anything, but trying to follow the discussion is made really difficult because of the way previous replies to your posts, your previous replies to other posts, and your newest thoughts are all jumbled together.I lost track of the actual arguments going on here a few replies back.  But I think I have a little bit to contribue to the discussion, even if only to relate my experiences in the game.On Rogue skill points:  It's true that a rogue would benefit at least as much from +2 skill points as the other classes.  I play both a rogue and a fighter/mage currently.  Due to a high int and the human bonus, the fighter/mage gets the same allotment of skill points that my Int 10 rogue does, but the rogue has far, far more skill ranks.  Paying half the price of most of the other classes is a sweet deal for the rogue, and allows a single skill point to go farther for a rogue than any other class.  However, as Souljourner points out, a rogue also needs to have several skills high.  Unique among the core classes, the rogue is virtually required to have certain skills at a moderately high level to be able to fulfill her class's function within the party.  Skills such as Open Locks, Disable Device, and Search are a must, as the rogue is the only class capable of dealing with Traps.  In order to get into flanking position without being AoO'd to death, Tumble gets added to the list, and if the rogue is expected to scout (as most rogues are) add Move Silently and Hide.  That's already five skills that need to be kept up.  Add to that the rogoe-only skills, such as Read Lips and Use Magic Device, and you're already approaching the limit on class-granted skills (disregarding int bonus points).  This isn't to say that a rogue should get a million skill points, but rather that, no matter how many skill points a rogue does get, it'll never really be enough.On Rogue Combat Effectiveness:  The rogue is certainly not the equal of the fighter in combat.  While the rogue will have moments to shine, the simply fact of the matter is that the rogue's attack potential is too sporadic, and her defense too weak, to allow her to compete with a fighter of equal level.  Sneak attack is excellent, but even a rogue with a 22 dex and Improved Initiative (like mine) isn't going to win initiative every time, and even if the rogue does win initiative, that doesn't always mean a sneak attack.  If it does, great, but there are a lot of times it won't.  Undead, Constructs, Oozes, Fortified fighters, and others (the undead alone are a significant portion of the Monster Manual, btw) will often prevent a sneak attack.Even in situations where a sneak attack is possible, the mid-level BAB doesn't always assure a hit like the fighter's does.  The rogue is also often unable to take advantage of iterative attacks.  The fighter in plate has the AC and the hp to walk up to the fire giant and trade blows.  The rogue's d6 and light armor mean a single full attack is usually lethal.  So it's either arrows from afar, or later Spring Attack if the rogue wants to stay alive.  She just doesn't have the toughness to stick it out; if she does, she's paste.All this is not to say the rogue doesn't have options in combat.  A dextrous rogue can do a lot, and I can usually find a way to be useful in most combats (though fighting undead can be tough.)  Still, being useful rarely if ever involves trying to equal the fighter in the damage department.  It's just not feasible.  At least, that's what playing 10 levels of rogue has taught me.  YMMV.</blockquote>

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