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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Aservan" data-source="post: 4385092" data-attributes="member: 63340">Dude in Starwed's defense you did get on a thread about why skill challenges are broken and then complained when Kraydak explained the math.  Yes his posting style is a little dense, but he's right and that makes up for a lot.The problem is this.  They tried to make a sort of game within a game for skills.  Much like combat works but they failed.  I don't really blame them for this failure as most games completely dodge the issue.  Avoiding the problem sort of works so they get away with it and call it "role playing."I like role playing.  Don't get me wrong.  I also know that there is a human being doing the role playing.  We all have the buddy who thinks he can play the charismatic talker.  We all know he can't or he would be more charming in real life.  His idea of picking up a girl starts with "Did it hurt?" or some such.  He doesn't get why this doesn't work in life and the game is no different.  Letting him roll to see if he can pull off his poor dialogue lets him have fun while the rest of us don't have to listen to him bumble through another conversation with the DM.We also all have the pal who wants to role play absolutely every bit of minutia up to and including potty breaks while the party camps.  BORING!   Abstraction is good.  Skill challenges are meant to let people have some drama in their games with out making them actually know how the thing the are simulating works.  Whether the thing is climbing a cliff or talking to a woman.I applaud the idea in 4th but I decry the execution.  There is no game within a game.  There is mention of how a player's skill can adjust the odds in his favor but precious little guidance on how to do that.  I mean if it all relies on the DM's judgement then why even mention the system?  We pay them to try and get this stuff right.  Like the warlock they half assed this part of the game.  I am sure they can make it better though.</blockquote>

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