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Message: <blockquote data-quote="ARandomGod" data-source="post: 2167474" data-attributes="member: 17296">The main (only?) advantage of adamantine armor is it's DR. Heavy armors get 3, meduim get two... I'd say that the special materials 'cost' should be considered to be only 10,000 like that of medium armors. Still, it IS a lot of gold to give out at first level. But come medium levels and you're sure wishing you'd paid in gold for it. It's nice that you can sleep in it (well, you don't sleep, but same thing), and that's almost worth a feat (like endurance), but your first level feat? Maybe a fighter feels the bite less, even they feel it, and any nonfighter feels the hit pretty hard. AND it's restrictive. It can't be any type of armor. I'd personally want mithril full plate. But better yet, IMO, would be for it to not cost a feat, and for them not to come with armors, but to be able to buy better armors later on like more normal characters. Along with the ability to take said armor off... you could make the time to take off the armor much, much higher, like 8 hours.That's never been in debate. It's also irrelevant to my point. He can't buy better armor. Anyone can buy better AC. Anyone can make the armor they have better by enchanting it. Anyone ELSE can also buy better armor. Sure. Depending on circumstances. So what you're saying is that anyone with the exact perfect class and choice of play can be fine, while everyone else is screwed to varying degrees? That's my point too, you know. ~_^I don't understand... are you implying that other races don't have acess to these items? If not, then why are you pointint out that the warforged does have acess to them?Actually I  think I made the best choice from the options available to me for the character, considering his planned carrerr path, the point buy stat distribution he has, etc. On the other hand, I also think that it was a large liability for the race to have the expenditure of a feat be its only method of getting full plate ever.On the other hand, mostly I'm pointing this (limited options, limited viability) out as an additional balance cost. I'm pretty sure the game designers intended this to be a part of the cost (if they didn't, I think they considered very poorly). It's a big cost, and it should be factored in any discussion of the races balance. I DO think that it's a bad feat, in that I think that it's not worth the price of a feat in general. But, since I consider it a cost of playing the warforged, I don't consider it bad from that perspective (well, I really think it could have been designed more flexibly without taking away from it's cost). Higher dex would be nice later, for those gloves of dex that you meantioned. Mostly for the higher mobility, he'll have levels of Barb so he'd get +10 speed in medium armor. My character is going high strength Barb2/fighter2/sorc/Dragon Disciple.I think that there's an enchantment in Arms and Equipment that might make it better (lighter) armor... at least I've heard rumors. I don't know anything about the cost nor do I know if I could talk the GM of that campaign into allowing something from A&E.He's only got a 28 point buy, so the higher dex doesn't mean *much* ... and compared to the Mithril Body feat, It would just cost more to get less AC going that route, although it would give a better reflex save, of course. I think that it might be within the power of a limited wish, as it would be effectively lowering the gold piece value of existing equipment (altering the adamantine to mithril), as opposed to creating an item or increasing the value of an item. However, it would be increasing the value to the character, so a full wish might be needed... (But would it be worth the cost?)Some other way to work it out would be great, but I can't think of any. Of course, but how much would you pay for a feat? I believe it *starts* at 10K, and goes up from there. AND that uses a magic item slot. So the warforged can get a jump on the non warforged cashwise, but in the end he'll discover he's really just bought the shaft. Which, IMO, is what was meant. The race is supposed to be better at lower levels, and worse at highter levels. Naw, I'm just saying you can't get better armor. For some, Mithril full plate is better armor than Adamantine full plate. I know and knew that you can enhance the existing armor... and that there are other ways to get armor class improvement (Luck bonus, insight bonus, deflection bonus, shield bonus, natural armor bonus, etcetera). But you're stuck with one of those three armor choices. That's what I think is bad. You also have to pay a feat, to essentially start out at first level with no feat selection, if you want to ever wear better than leather armor. That part I see as a racial cost. But I think that for the feat you have to spend there should be more flexibility... you should be able to select specail material, then select armor type. Perhaps limit the materials you can select, if you want to keep druids out of the race. In that I just meant that unless you're in a campaign where you'll never get adamantine armor, or mithril armors... a campaign where you'll never have access to any special materials to enchant, or perhaps won't have access to the gold needed to purchase those materials. There I was mainly stating that unless you're playing in a game where a first level feat that says essentially "you gain 12000 gold" is a good feat, then this feat isn't really very good, value wise. Well, it's the price of a general feat, which can make a difference even to a fighter... and stating that it's only 1/18th of your total feats is implying that every warforged who'd want to take that feat is a fighter. Unfortunately this is a race, and not a class issue. Even if their 'favored' class is fighter, I've never seen anyone play a fighter warforged (Beyond two levels). To be fair, I haven't seen a lot of warforged played yet, so far only 5. But none of them has taken fighter beyond two levels. And, another main point I was making, is the effective cost/benifit of the feat. By the time you've gotten 18 feats, you'd really much rather have bought the armor in gold than spent a feat. Feats cost more than 2/3 adamantine full plate.But to someone who's "against androids" it's a significant distinction. I mean, just becuase they can't imagine the concept as different, doesn't mean it's not different. There are people who don't think that there should be much magic in fantasy games either. And it doesn't have the angst of an android... angst (emotions) are reserved for constructs imbued with a soul. Souls are very, very palpable. It's not my fault if some people can't grasp the difference. Sure, people will get confused. They'll try to make AI viruses to 'infect' the construct. And there's one difference. A construct is not actually programmed. There's no brain or hardware or software. There's just a rock, and a stick of wood, and this crystal dragonshard.Heck, I've seen pure magic written as science fiction. People can do anything. Doesn't really stop that this effect is very different than robotics and programming.Ah yes, indeed that IS the main limit, isn't it?</blockquote>

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