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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 7620500" data-attributes="member: 177">You aren't the only one in the thread that has tried to refer to something like the human &quot;natural state&quot;.&nbsp; I was speaking to the entire concept with your post as merely a jumping off point, as it was the most recent to use the concept.No.&nbsp; Just as a wild cat is not &quot;without cat influence&quot;.&nbsp; Wild is variously, &quot;in a natural environment&quot; or &quot;undomesticated&quot; - which I restated as 'without human influence&quot; (which isn't the entirety of it, but was enough for my point).&nbsp; Ants living in a human building are not in a natural environment, so may not behave or develop in ways other members of the species that are in natural environments do.&nbsp; I'm basically suggesting that all humans are, for our purposes, domesticated.&nbsp; Well, that'd be cherry picking.&nbsp; Researchers complied data from some 426 combined years of observation of chimpanzees, across 18 different chimp communities - a total of 152 killings were reported. When the did the same for bonobos, a combined&nbsp; 92 years of observations -&nbsp; just a single suspected killing.Similar behavior is not generally seen in gorillas, unless they are forced into large groups with 3+ potential breeding males, not the natural state for the animals.So, chimpanzees murder at human rates.&nbsp; Bonobos and gorillas don't.&nbsp; From this larger view, violent behavior does not seem that great apes, in general, are particularly violent.&nbsp; Jumping to the conclusion based on chimpanzees alone seems questionable in the larger context.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 7620500, member: 177"] You aren't the only one in the thread that has tried to refer to something like the human "natural state". I was speaking to the entire concept with your post as merely a jumping off point, as it was the most recent to use the concept. No. Just as a wild cat is not "without cat influence". Wild is variously, "in a natural environment" or "undomesticated" - which I restated as 'without human influence" (which isn't the entirety of it, but was enough for my point). Ants living in a human building are not in a natural environment, so may not behave or develop in ways other members of the species that are in natural environments do. I'm basically suggesting that all humans are, for our purposes, domesticated. Well, that'd be cherry picking. Researchers complied data from some 426 combined years of observation of chimpanzees, across 18 different chimp communities - a total of 152 killings were reported. When the did the same for bonobos, a combined 92 years of observations - just a single suspected killing. Similar behavior is not generally seen in gorillas, unless they are forced into large groups with 3+ potential breeding males, not the natural state for the animals. So, chimpanzees murder at human rates. Bonobos and gorillas don't. From this larger view, violent behavior does not seem that great apes, in general, are particularly violent. Jumping to the conclusion based on chimpanzees alone seems questionable in the larger context. [/QUOTE]

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