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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7622859" data-attributes="member: 4937">Sure.&nbsp; But they were guidelines, and even if I was inclined to rigidly follow someone else's guidelines, it's trivial matter to show that two groups of 13 encounters with the same encounter levels have vastly different difficulties.&nbsp; Likewise, not even published modules rigidly adhered to those guidelines.More to t he point, if you read the 1e DMG, while Gygax doesn't give as detailed of accounting of the math underlying the system, he does give guidelines regarding finding a balance between challenge and the ability to achieve success, and disparages DMing that veers to far to either side.&nbsp;&nbsp; He also gives what amounts to dungeon construction guidelines in the appendixes, regarding what level of monsters are to be encountered by players of a particular level and in what proportions.&nbsp; So all the basic ideas in 3e encounter guidelines are still there, he's just not as forward with his math.Yes, the first one I found.&nbsp; I could look for more, but they'd likely be of the same character.Role-playing is role-playing whether it is done as a leisure activity or for some other more serious purpose.The two things aren't mutually exclusive.&nbsp; The direct ancestor of Blackmoor, the first RPG in the modern sense, was a Braunstein - which was an entirely improvisational wargame.&nbsp; And a Braunstein is directly the descendent of professional war games which were used for occupational training, and which - importantly to this conversation - would have featured participants required to give and write orders as if the situation they were in was actually occurring for real.&nbsp;&nbsp; And while you are trying to explain to me what the ancestors of an RPG are, I think it would be instructional to think about why they represented something new and not just another sort of wargame.&nbsp;&nbsp; While I don't think there was a conscious decision to marry a wargame with theater games, almost everything about an RPG can be found one or the other in games that preexisted the modern RPG.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7622859, member: 4937"] Sure. But they were guidelines, and even if I was inclined to rigidly follow someone else's guidelines, it's trivial matter to show that two groups of 13 encounters with the same encounter levels have vastly different difficulties. Likewise, not even published modules rigidly adhered to those guidelines. More to t he point, if you read the 1e DMG, while Gygax doesn't give as detailed of accounting of the math underlying the system, he does give guidelines regarding finding a balance between challenge and the ability to achieve success, and disparages DMing that veers to far to either side. He also gives what amounts to dungeon construction guidelines in the appendixes, regarding what level of monsters are to be encountered by players of a particular level and in what proportions. So all the basic ideas in 3e encounter guidelines are still there, he's just not as forward with his math. Yes, the first one I found. I could look for more, but they'd likely be of the same character. Role-playing is role-playing whether it is done as a leisure activity or for some other more serious purpose. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. The direct ancestor of Blackmoor, the first RPG in the modern sense, was a Braunstein - which was an entirely improvisational wargame. And a Braunstein is directly the descendent of professional war games which were used for occupational training, and which - importantly to this conversation - would have featured participants required to give and write orders as if the situation they were in was actually occurring for real. And while you are trying to explain to me what the ancestors of an RPG are, I think it would be instructional to think about why they represented something new and not just another sort of wargame. While I don't think there was a conscious decision to marry a wargame with theater games, almost everything about an RPG can be found one or the other in games that preexisted the modern RPG. [/QUOTE]

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