D&D General Why Aren’t the strongest Outsiders Closer in CR?

[GreatestHonor]

I was looking at both official and 3PP content, and it left me wondering. Why are some of the highest ranked/most powerful of outsiders (baernoloth, throne archon, leonal) so much weaker than others (balor, pit fiend)? To be clear this isnt about the celestial paragons or archfiends.

Wouldn’t it make more sense for these beings closer in CR? Have leonal being CR 12 compared to a balor’s CR 19 seems strange.

 

[Zardnaar]

Balor near the top of the heap leonals are not. Solar are the celestial equivalent to them and pit fiends.

 

[Demetrios1453]

The official baernoloth from the Planescape set is CR 17, which isn't too far off the balor's CR 19.

We don't have official stats for throne archons or leonals yet, so any 3PP content has to be taken with a grain of salit, especially if it came before the Planescape set, which would set the levels for 5e. The avoral guardinal in that book is CR 9, and, as it's in the middle in power level with the guradinals, I'd imagine an official leonal would be much higher than CR 12. The warden archon in the Planescape book is CR 8, and, again, it's middle of the pack, so I'd imagine an official throne archon would be higher as well. I'd guess the official ones will be at or around the baernoloth level.

Also, for celestials, you have angels a separate group competing for those CR levels.

 

[GreatestHonor]

Balor near the top of the heap leonals are not. Solar are the celestial equivalent to them and pit fiends.

I would think the different groups would have their own contender.

The official baernoloth from the Planescape set is CR 17, which isn't too far off the balor's CR 19.

That’s fair, I just would expect it to be closer or possibly higher considering its reputation

We don't have official stats for throne archons or leonals yet, so any 3PP content has to be taken with a grain of salit, especially if it came before the Planescape set, which would set the levels for 5e. The avoral guardinal in that book is CR 9, and, as it's in the middle in power level with the guradinals, I'd imagine an official leonal would be much higher than CR 12. The warden archon in the Planescape book is CR 8, and, again, it's middle of the pack, so I'd imagine an official throne archon would be higher as well. I'd guess the official ones will be at or around the baernoloth level.

That’s a fair assessment. I hope its the case.

Also, for celestials, you have angels a separate group competing for those CR levels.

True, I just think each group should have a high CR entry

 

[MonsterEnvy]

That’s fair, I just would expect it to be closer or possibly higher considering its reputation

They have a scary reputation, but they were never more powerful than Balors or Pit Fiends from memory.

 

[MechaTarrasque]

It seems like WotC is big on one group of outsiders being the heroic level (1-10) and another one being the big time for most of the alignment groups, with the exception of devils and demons, and honestly that is tradition (I seem to recall they tried to break demons up in 3x with tanarii on top, but maybe that is just my bad memory).

N: The Rilmani are top heavy, but we don't have a lower-level group.
LN: We haven't seen high-level modrons in a while, but the Inevitables and maybe sphinxes seem to fill that role
CN: Slaad are heroic-level, but no high-level yet.
NE: Yugoloths tend pretty heroic-level, used to have evil Empyreans in 5e, now not sure.
NG: Guardinals are heroic-level, animal lords are high level
CG: Celestial elves can use the NPC classes, so I guess they top out at CR12, used to have good Empyreans in 5e, now not sure.
LG: Archons are heroic level, and angels are high level.

I wouldn't mind some capricious cosmic types that could fit the high-level thing for CN and/or CG. Maybe something you need to impress to get help; that is how I tended to run the good Empyreans in 5e (I also had a bunch of them hanging out in Limbo). Basically, picture a celestial that would be happy to take a paladin's oath of glory.

Edit: sorry forgot the Demodands who seem to make up some space that angels do for NE, but still nothing quite pit fiend level.

 

[bloodtide]

I was looking at both official and 3PP content, and it left me wondering. Why are some of the highest ranked/most powerful of outsiders (baernoloth, throne archon, leonal) so much weaker than others (balor, pit fiend)? To be clear this isnt about the celestial paragons or archfiends.

Wouldn’t it make more sense for these beings closer in CR? Have leonal being CR 12 compared to a balor’s CR 19 seems strange.

There is a philosophy that has been around forever that "the bad guys must be stronger then the good guys to give the characters foes to fight."

The story idea is, at least, to have most good beings always need to ask for help from the "powerful characters" to make a good story.

You see it pop up from time to time...depending on the writers, editors or such at the time.

 

[Stalker0]

Also the CRs really don't matter too much when you start thinking about these in "army" terms rather than as small encounters typical for adventures. If one side has twice the numbers for example, who cases that their top dogs are a bit weaker than the other guys top dogs. Or leadership (aka their commanders) can be a factor, etc.

 

[GreatestHonor]

N: The Rilmani are top heavy, but we don't have a lower-level group.

It kind of makes sense. On’t they come in and rebalance planar energies?

NG: Guardinals are heroic-level, animal lords are high level

Didn’t think about it until i saw this, but are the animal lords supposed to replace Talsid and his companions?

Also the CRs really don't matter too much when you start thinking about these in "army" terms rather than as small encounters typical for adventures. If one side has twice the numbers for example, who cases that their top dogs are a bit weaker than the other guys top dogs. Or leadership (aka their commanders) can be a factor, etc.

That’s a fair point. I would simply prefer for each major side to have rough equivalents to one another.

 

[GreatestHonor]

They have a scary reputation, but they were never more powerful than Balors or Pit Fiends from memory.

Surprising. From what i figured they were akin to demigods/lesser deities since some place them as the creators of demons/yugoloths