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Message: <blockquote data-quote="MechaTarrasque" data-source="post: 9605076" data-attributes="member: 6801226">Good point, and CR is "challenge against 4 PC's", so in outsider vs. outsider, they might have different effective CR's.  Solars do a lot of radiant damage, which deprives archdevils of their healing, so even though a Solar is "only" a 21, it might give a hard fight to a Lord of the 9, even though they are in the mid-to-high 20's.At one point, I was playing with updating the Heddomad, and I gave a Zaphkiel a cool power that did nothing to his CR; any water created or manipulated by his spells counts as holy water.  Then I gave him fog cloud (9th level) and control weather.   He could nuke an army of zombieI figure Talsid and Co. are closer to demon lords or Lords of the 9, probably in the mid-to upper 20's.</blockquote>