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<blockquote data-quote="Kahuna Burger" data-source="post: 1506576" data-attributes="member: 8439">now you are the one using faulty reasoning. The point as I read it was that there are plenty of plans (or situations) where even an untrained lie (and paladins do at least usualy have the base cha to give it a shot) is neccassary. Claiming you can always &quot;refuse to say&quot; or be silent or whatever was silly, and if the example overstepped in mechanics the base point is still there. Bluffing into the inner circle? Sure, probably dog food. Using the names of the agents you intercepted just to get in the front door? No big. Saying &quot;I choose not to give my name, but I'm with them&quot; because there's no reason you'd ever need to lie? death to the entire plan.There are plenty of gaming situations where the good and even largely lawful heroes are nonetheless undercover. Claiming that only those with &quot;dodgy&quot; motives find it hard to work with a (hard core, by the book, inflexible) paladin, or that its all about wanting to be morally amibiguous antiheroes is missing the point. Sometimes you want to do something a little different from riding your warhorse into the throngs of evil, smiting them head on then going back to the inn for a round of ale and the free dessert from your &quot;kiss me, I'm a paladin&quot; tee shirt.... its the difference between a character class that might not be suited to one of many adventure ideas, and one which is really only suited to one adventure idea.(On a side note to various superman comparisions, I never understood how superman's supposed inability to lie could work with his secret identity. How many times could he give an evasive answer or ignore the question when someone asked &quot;what did you do at lunch&quot; or &quot;I didn't see you when the building was attacked. Where were you&quot; or whatever? The office physical: &quot;Mr Kent, do you have any allergies?&quot; &quot;Er, kryptonite.&quot;)oh and as much as it pains me to agree with hong, I hate campaigns where everyone with the paladin class has the kiss me I'm a paladin tee shirt and no fighters, or fighter clerics, or rangers with favored enemy undead hold the same place in society. I don't think paladin orders are the answer, I think the answer is accepting that the paladin is just another guy with a sword and has to work for a good rep like everyone else.Kahuna Burger</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Kahuna Burger, post: 1506576, member: 8439"] now you are the one using faulty reasoning. The point as I read it was that there are plenty of plans (or situations) where even an untrained lie (and paladins do at least usualy have the base cha to give it a shot) is neccassary. Claiming you can always "refuse to say" or be silent or whatever was silly, and if the example overstepped in mechanics the base point is still there. Bluffing into the inner circle? Sure, probably dog food. Using the names of the agents you intercepted just to get in the front door? No big. Saying "I choose not to give my name, but I'm with them" because there's no reason you'd ever need to lie? death to the entire plan. There are plenty of gaming situations where the good and even largely lawful heroes are nonetheless undercover. Claiming that only those with "dodgy" motives find it hard to work with a (hard core, by the book, inflexible) paladin, or that its all about wanting to be morally amibiguous antiheroes is missing the point. Sometimes you want to do something a little different from riding your warhorse into the throngs of evil, smiting them head on then going back to the inn for a round of ale and the free dessert from your "kiss me, I'm a paladin" tee shirt.... its the difference between a character class that might not be suited to one of many adventure ideas, and one which is really only suited to one adventure idea. (On a side note to various superman comparisions, I never understood how superman's supposed inability to lie could work with his secret identity. How many times could he give an evasive answer or ignore the question when someone asked "what did you do at lunch" or "I didn't see you when the building was attacked. Where were you" or whatever? The office physical: "Mr Kent, do you have any allergies?" "Er, kryptonite.") oh and as much as it pains me to agree with hong, I hate campaigns where everyone with the paladin class has the kiss me I'm a paladin tee shirt and no fighters, or fighter clerics, or rangers with favored enemy undead hold the same place in society. I don't think paladin orders are the answer, I think the answer is accepting that the paladin is just another guy with a sword and has to work for a good rep like everyone else. Kahuna Burger [/QUOTE]

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