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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 9163852" data-attributes="member: 87792">And this is simultaneously a strawman and a shift of goalposts. oD&D, B/X, and 1e were written to be dungeon exploration games where you gained XP by obtaining loot. This is how Gygax played the game, how Gygax wrote the game, and Gygax taught the game - but Gygax's writing was not always clear. You could play them as adventure path games. Meanwhile 2e is written to be an adventure path or worldbuilding game that you could play as a mercenary dungeon adventure game.2e, far from being a cleaned up game was when the actual Old School style that Gygax played, wrote, and taught was explicitly forced into the back seat. And the OSR is explicitly about going back to the old school Lake Geneva style.Pretending that 2e was unchanged is an outright attempt to erase old school play.No it didn't. It represented the triumph of encounter based play over dungeon adventures. It was a change in philosophy from the old school to what was and is still the default.Oh, indeed. It was however not an old school thing. It was new. It is now Trad - and is what is used in 5e. The Old School looks back past that to the playstyle that this supplanted and that you are attempting to erase.Or they do. And you simply don't understand the explicit intent of the OSR and are instead trying to erase the Old School style for what came to dominate afterwards.This is a pure strawman. The OSR and Old School in general digs right back to the Lake Geneva playstyle and things consistent with that.Believe it or not Wilderness was part of the dungeon experience. Partly because of the Test Your Luck nature.Well that's pretty obvious. I'm not into it either, but mostly because I find the politics and frequently the aesthetics highly unpleasant. That doesn't mean I don't respect the design.Because Gygax was a great developer but not a very good designer. And because they can focus on and draw out the parts of the design that are interesting and were displaced and forced into the back seat by 2e.It's not just about the games - but the way they were played. The way you are trying to deprecate if not outright erase.</blockquote>

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