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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ace" data-source="post: 235463" data-attributes="member: 944">OK I can see you point but how does a Commercial Driver, Iado Blackbelt, Cook, Actor, 20 years SCA and Singer fit together if all of the skills are professional level?A class system (particuarly D&D) wouldn't allow enough skill points to achieve 5+ in of these skills without being high level or having very high stats, neither of which fit the bill for this individualLets take D&D as an exampleI have a character 28 years old-- His background-- Grew up on a farm near the fairy woods till 10parents ran out of town joined Gypsy caravan for 5 yearsapprenticed to a wizard  for 3 yearsjoined mercenary army as fighter for 7 yearslast 2 years was an adventurer.Recently got call to become PaladinNow I could make him a Rogue1, Sorcerer2, Fighter 4, Paladin 1, This would cover his skills pretty well  but its clumsy, FREX what if the concept shouldn't have Flank Attack, Training in polearms, Training in platemail and so on  With a skill system he has Swordknifespearstealththeftvarious spellsholy warrior giftsmagic powerBadaBoom Bada BingAre they? Perhaps strict classes, but 3e style classes allow you to select a variety of different skills.True. There is a problem with "baggage" though. I had a character concept - Paladin With Woods Skills:To play this I had to take a level of Ranger which gave me Ambidextarity, Species Enemy and 2W fighting that had nothing to do with the charcter conceptIn a point based system I ould have bought alertness stuff, stealth and tracking and been done with itBunch more examples My character concept Guy who can fight and use some magicIn class system - 5 levels of Wizard (I know a number of spells so Sorcerer is out) then 4 of fighter works ok but I also have to take Scribe Scroll, A bonus meta magic feat and the ability to have a familiar, none of which suit the character.Point based systemMagerySpellsweapons skillsstill balanced-- doneThird exampleThief with healing giftGrew up on the street of Unborg was product of rape, raised by orphanage. Grew up to take care of self. Learned to fight. Joined army. Has Moms healing gift. Not a nice guyIn D&D I make him a cleric, fighter, rogue--- Of course I have all the turn undead, various weapons feats, and assorted clerical and rogue baggage. In additon if the GM starts at 3rd level it will take 3 session to get better at anything.Its easier to make the character with skill based systemweapon skillshealing talentrogue skillsDoneExample 4:  Concept Woodsman/ShapechangerClass system, compute ecl for Shapechanger-- Oh sorry we are starting at level1 not allowedAfter some weedling OK we will start at level 2Picks class, HMM ranger I guess as Barbarian has no stealth skillsSo far I have an unneeded Species enemy, Ambidext and 2w style (or its replacement) heavy and medium armor feats--I play him a while and hit 8th level. I have even more species enemy rubbish and spells that don't fit eitherThe solution? Use another class-- Sigh to solve a simple design problem I have to import another class from another game or supplement-- And if the DM wants to use core rules only well I am out of luckNow in a skill based system wolf form packageWoods skillsdone----Fifth problemUnarmed fighter with inate spell ability. Dad was a Storm elemental see... In D&D and most class based system (excep Rolemaster) not possibleSkill based system ---martial arts abilitiesinate spell powerdoneI can get on board with that idea, but why bother codifing it in rules. Just tell your players "Make your skills fit your background"Its clumsy. It is easier to say "Your charcter apprenticed with a Druid but didn't become one. No problem, Buy Druid Lore at x" What is an illogical charcter. It seems to me the burden of proof falls on the GM not the player! Rather than fighting the system to build a con man/ warrior/ wizard I can just build him as needed. If there is skill or two out of place the GM can just say "Not allowed"That a good point and it is a GURPS quirk.We will have to agree to disagree here. I have played a lot of skill based systems and I have never had the illogical character problem in any serious way. My biggest problem has ben with Illogical classes and concepts in D&D, No you can't play a Psion there aren't any. I am not using that feat or class etcOf course I usually err on the side of fun, shrug and sayHeck its Just a game and let em play what they likeYMMV of course</blockquote>

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