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Message: <blockquote data-quote="mxyzplk" data-source="post: 3990246" data-attributes="member: 16450">So in my recent post, "<a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=215943" target="_blank">What D&D 4e Should Learn From World of Warcraft</a>", a lot of people brought up a number of objections involving ways that D&D is better than WoW/MMORPGs, and also ways in which MMOs are bad.  I totally agree, though all of that is irrelevant to the point I was making in the post - saying that there's some things that D&D could try to learn from WoW doesn't mean that WoW is "better" or that D&D doesn't have areas where it excels over anything MMORPGs can currently and possibly could ever match.There's only so much chasing after something else you can do and be successful.  I think another good way to look at the D&D 4e/WoW relationship is to figure out what D&D's strengths are that WoW (and other CRPGs/MMORPGs) *can't* easily match, and work on them.As an aside, my company is a big believer in the Marcus Buckingham "Now, Discover Your Strengths" management philosophy.  Simply stated, it's more effective (and easier) to develop someone's strengths rather than focus on shoring up their weaknesses.  The reasons are simple.  If a person can improve 30% in something, if it's something they are already good at that's more net improvement.  And if Mozart can't do math - well screw it, he's Mozart.I think you can look at D&D in the same light.  It's never going to be as effective a tactical combat game as pretty much any computer game, from Diablo to World of Warcraft.   Doing all the math etc. is the computer's strength, you can't beat it at it.  However, there are great things about D&D that WoW has a hard time with, and by focusing on those you can get something that's not "WoW for weirdo geeks without computer access" but something that has a competitive advantage, that's better in many ways. Allow me to quote from the most recent issue of PC Gamer magazine (Feb 2008, p.100):"Yet computer games will never match tabletop games for offering open-ended role-playing experiences.  It's just not practical, or wise, to try to program a game to appropriately respond to every improbable action a player could opt to take. [...] It's just impossible for a computer RPG to try to account for all of the possible actions conceivable in the warped imaginations of RPG fans."  Unlimited ChoiceYou can have your character do anything you can think of!  Although you may end up getting tasered.  (In the game or out of it, depending on what it is.)CreativeRather than experiencing someone else's creation, you are empowered to create on your own.  Create characters, stories, adventures, items, whatnot.Change The WorldThe world isn't static and things don't respawn.  If you really want to burn down that inn (and you have the juice to get away with it) - it's cinders.CustomizableYou can change the rules and setting easily to your own preferences - no modding skills required.  ImmersivenessYou can get into your character and truly role-play, without people interrupting to yell about Chuck Norris (depending on your gaming group).CinematicThough the graphics of MMORPGs are nice, the human imagination is always more powerful.  What do all of these boil down to?  Harnessing the participants’ imagination.So here's the big question.   How do you leverage that? Well, I'd at least say that the current direction - battle maps, minis, highly defined rules - is not the right way to do that.  There are certainly RPGs that leverage the participants' imagination more.  Feng Shui is highly cinematic and allows very slight player authorship, but is way more "fun" to play in a given session.  Other games like octaNe give the players even more direct creative participation into the game and story.   Of course, D&D is never going to be able to tolerate that high a degree of creative input.  But what are some things they could do to leverage these things?  Sure, many of them can be maximized by a good DM, but the game rules (and related fluff) can certainly contribute (or detract).Some ideas.1.  Try to craft the rules in a way such that someone can always try to do something (especially some nonmagical combat action).  Relevant feats etc. may negate heavy penalties, but someone should always be able to try.  3e did a pretty good job of this out of the gate - disarms, grapples, sunders - although as splatbooks came out there tended to be more "you can only do this if..." feats and abilities. 2.  Though there need to be rules to balance it, encourage players to create their own spells, magic items, craft their equipment, etc.  I saw way more player-created spells in the 2e era than I ever saw in the 3e era.  3.  Teach people some damn role-playing.  OK fine, so sure, if people don't want to get into that they don't have to, but increasingly the "examples of play" read a lot more like "I rolled 8, did I hit?" than "I hack furiously at the wererat!"  I own something on the order of 1000 RPG products and there are many games that, just in their core rules, set a stage  that promotes role-playing.  Again, without that D&D is always going to lose out to some computer thing that can "automate" the rules.4.  Discretionary XP awards.  In 2e these were all over the place, for role-playing and for creativity.  In every 3e game I've ever played it's strictly done by table lookup.  Change that.5.  DM creativity.  3e did some good things in making some hard and fast rules for monster creation, encounter creation (CR/EL), etc.  That allowed people to create within guidelines that helped their game to work.  Keep that concept, and expand on it.  6.  Stress player impact onthe world.  From their actions driving up/down local prices, to having 'reputation' that affects who's heard of you and what they've heard.  What do y'all think - what could D&D to to specifically enhance the open-ended, immersive, imagination-leveraging aspect which  tabletop RPGs have as an innate advantage over CRPGs?</blockquote>

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