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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 8336046" data-attributes="member: 5889">Some good discussion on here. So I want to review the "tiers" of railroading:The CampaignThe DM has planned a certain style of campaign, and expects players to design characters to fit that campaign. Aka, no playing the evil death cleric if this is a goody two shoes kind of campaign.If the DM has presented this right up front, I think its a reasonable expectation for players to create characters that "work" in that campaign. If the character is having to be "constantly convinced" to go along with the threads the DM is proposing.... than that is a failure of the player to make a workable character.Yes.... players have been railroaded into a set of choices, even if the choices are still fairly broad, but I would say this is a reasonable railroad.The AdventureWithin the campaign are a series of adventures....and the amount of "railroading" here depends on the style of the campaign. Some campaigns are completely "sandbox".... in these campaigns, the players are pretty much running the show, and the DM is expected to either have a lot of options planned or improvise well enough to adapt to those choices. In this context, players "forced" into a narrow direction is a legitimate railroad issue.A middle ground "soft railroad" I have used as a DM in these campaigns. When we hit a point where its time for the players to choose, I ask them to make their choice when the current session is over before the next one....and agree to stick with that choice. That way I can properly prepare for what they want to do. The players have still chosen the path, but it gives the DM a way to still focus their efforts.Then there are campaigns that have a more railroaded structure. One of my favorite campaign constructs is the "party works for an organization that gives out missions". That way as the DM I have very strong control over the adventures the players do, but in a way that works completely within the narrative structure. As long as the missions are interesting the players have a good time and don't feel railroaded... in fact I have found that as my group has gotten older and real life taken over....this is their preferred structure. They ultimately don't want to think too much and are happy to be given a mission that all of them innately in character agree to (aka no in-fighting about where to go).The PlotKind of the glue between adventures and campaign, but can also be thought of as "how much the players reinforce or disrupt the current flow of events".I find this is where a lot of the "railroads go wrong" can occur. As a DM you often work hard to create XYZ villain and scheme and all of this stuff, and then your players do something so crazy, so unexpected....and the damn dice just work... and your plot is "destroyed". Its very frustrating at times, and the impulse can be to repair it, to get things back on track just the way you want it..... and that is the true destructive railroad.The players must feel like their actions matter, and so how much the players feel railroaded both depends on what plot changes the DM makes, but also how those changes are presented.For example, the DM had a BBEG planned.... the party kills them much earlier than expected. The DM might be tempted to bring the BBEG back in some way. If you just do that....players are going to feel completely railroaded. But for example if you have an ally of the BBEG join the players because "they proved the BBEG is weak and unworthy to follow"....that's cool. If the players gain some cool item from the BBEG's destruction that they now get to have fun with....than that's an impact.You can change your plot a lot or a little depending on player's actions, but if you are going to do it a little you need to ensure you present to the players how key their actions were to that change....they need to feel that are the ones that pushed some thing in motion, and aren't constantly helpless before the whims of fate.The EncounterAbove this was noted as the "Quantum Ogre" problem. Imo this problem is much less severe than people think it is.... because players do not have the information to feel slighted in most cases.For example, you set up two tunnels....one leading to the McGuffin, the other to a magical pool. The players use their skills to suss out which tunnel has the McGuffin and go for it. The DM may have planned for the Ogre in the other tunnel, but now switches it to McGuffin tunnel. Imo that is not a railroad at all.... the players choice still mattered, the DM is just ensuring some fun and challenge along the way as is their job. Now if the players were able to make certain checks or use abilities that let them know where the ogre should be....and the ogre is in the other tunnel "just because".... that can lead to problems.Aka its just a matter of degrees and presentation. The DM could even take this a step further, the two tunnels are basically identical and the players are not able to suss out which one is the McGuffin. They choose a tunnel.... but whichever one they choose they DM makes that the magical pool tunnel. Is that a railroad.... technically yes, but the players don't know or probably care. Now if the players had rolled impossible checks on their skills and the DM still gave no indication..... that's a little more suspect. And if the DM uses this trick in EVERY dungeon, so the players never short cut to the thing....again more suspect. But used in moderation its a perfectly reasonable trick for DMs to ensure a good flow to the adventure and fun for the players.</blockquote>

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