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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 8336582" data-attributes="member: 16814">Because those things aren't the same thing as making stuff up?  I mean, there are also lots of things where timing doesn't really matter, so do those prove my point?  This argument is on poor footing -- it's not logically sound.I'm a player.  My GM just told me that there's an orc in the next room with a pie and the room is 10'x10'.  Now, tell me if my GM made that up last week, or just now.  You cannot.  Ergo, timing on when you make things up has no effect. Oh, I very much disagree here.  Take the above example, the player has agency with this situation -- they can choose to talk to the orc, fight the orc, sneak and steal from the orc, or walk away from the orc (or some other odd things I'm sure).  This is full of agency for the player, whether or not the GM just made the orc up or not.As for entered into the fiction, sure -- nothing that has been prepped has been entered into the shared fiction. If I write down, last week, that there's a pressure plate trap in the floor, and then it catches a player, the impact of that trap is exactly the same as if I just added it a few moments ago because I thought I would be fun (presumably that's why I might have added it a week ago).  Prep isn't entered into the shared fiction, and is just as prone to the problem you're dancing around but not getting to.What I think that problem might be is when the GM withholds critical information from the players and springs a gotcha.  Again, this doesn't hinge on when the GM imagines this gotcha -- it's still a gotcha.  This removes agency no matter when you think of it.  Again, nothing about prep is magical here.I'm sorry, can you tell me what the moral aspects of pretend elf games are in regards to when I, as a GM, imagine something?  The ethical aspects?  Goodness, the legal ones (I mean, do I have any legal requirements in D&D)?  Or the financial ones?  You're just saying things that are important in other contexts as if their importance somehow adheres to pretend elf games just because you've invoked them.I mean, I pointed out games that are designed to work where everything is created in the moment of play -- prep just doesn't work.  And these are popular games -- FATE (arguably can be run with some prep as well), Powered by the Apocalypse games, Forged in the Dark games, Burning Wheel games.  These eschew prep for play in the moment -- everything is right now.  So, if you're going to continue this argument, you need to account for these games as well in your position.  I'm curious what legal ramifications these games may now face.</blockquote>

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