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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 8342909" data-attributes="member: 177">And this is a base assumption that I don't think everyone agrees upon.&nbsp; We do not all agree on whether &quot;meaning&quot; and &quot;following event&quot; are the same thing.&nbsp; And, if we don't all agree upon that, this discussion cannot resolve.Agency is shown when you take an action intended to produce some effect or result.&nbsp; If you are not intending anything, you are not exercising your agency.&nbsp; If you randomly generate a series of syllables and intone them, you have sounds, but those sounds have no meaning.&nbsp; They are just random sounds (one literal definition of &quot;noise&quot;), gibberish containing no semantic content.&nbsp; Even if a few syllables in a row sound like a word in some language, it isn't like you meant to intone that word. You did not have information in mind and attempt to communicate it.We all live in a world in which things happen that have nothing to do with our own actions or intentions - events unrelated to us sometimes impinge upon our lives.&nbsp; It is not, so to speak, all about what we want.&nbsp; Does this count as a removal of your agency - are you railroaded into dealing with the thing?If you don't feel those restrict your agency, then the quantum ogre - the monster who appears separate from your choices - does not either. If you do feel those things restrict your real-world agency, well, then such removal of agency is part of life, and that means it should have some place in our games from time to time.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 8342909, member: 177"] And this is a base assumption that I don't think everyone agrees upon. We do not all agree on whether "meaning" and "following event" are the same thing. And, if we don't all agree upon that, this discussion cannot resolve. Agency is shown when you take an action [I]intended to produce[/I] some effect or result. If you are not intending anything, you are not exercising your agency. If you randomly generate a series of syllables and intone them, you have sounds, but those sounds [I]have no meaning[/I]. They are just random sounds (one literal definition of "noise"), gibberish containing no semantic content. Even if a few syllables in a row sound like a word in some language, it isn't like you [I]meant[/I] to intone that word. You did not have information in mind and attempt to communicate it. We all live in a world in which things happen that have nothing to do with our own actions or intentions - events unrelated to us sometimes impinge upon our lives. It is not, so to speak, all about what we want. Does this count as a removal of your agency - are you railroaded into dealing with the thing? If you don't feel those restrict your agency, then the quantum ogre - the monster who appears separate from your choices - does not either. If you do feel those things restrict your real-world agency, well, then such removal of agency [I]is part of life[/I], and that means it should have some place in our games from time to time. [/QUOTE]

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