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<blockquote data-quote="Umbran" data-source="post: 8343227" data-attributes="member: 177">See the scenario I posted above that ended up with it raining - the choice seemed to matter, but didn't.&nbsp; This is a pretty normal thing in life, but it should be eliminated from our games?&nbsp; But from there, I also note that we wind up with a failure for that general statement to hold.What happens when the players are wrong?&nbsp; The quantum ogre again - the party thinks there are ogres, and they make choices based upon that, but... there never were any ogres, and the GM never said there were ogres.&nbsp; To the players it seemed like it mattered.&nbsp; Now, I have to make it actually matter?&nbsp; I have to add in actual ogres somewhere to fulfill a seeming they invented? And, what happens when there are people in the setting who give misinformation for reasons?&nbsp; They can create situations in which it seems like choices matter, but don't.&nbsp; The ogre is told where to go find the party.&nbsp; This would violate the stated requirement - that what seems to matter must actually matter.&nbsp; Do we now only ever give the players correct information, to make this happen?I think the term you want for this is &quot;bait and switch&quot;.&nbsp; And, yeah, frequently this can be deeply unsatisfying for the player.&nbsp; But this certainly isn't the &quot;nobody knew about the ogre, so I moved it&quot; case.&nbsp; So, I think this boils down to only a limited set of cases, rather than the general one you state above.&nbsp; And it amounts to - screw with the PCs, but don't screw with the players.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Umbran, post: 8343227, member: 177"] See the scenario I posted above that ended up with it raining - the choice seemed to matter, but didn't. This is a pretty normal thing in life, but it should be eliminated from our games? But from there, I also note that we wind up with a failure for that general statement to hold. What happens when [I]the players are wrong[/I]? The quantum ogre again - the party [I]thinks[/I] there are ogres, and they make choices based upon that, but... there never were any ogres, and the GM never said there were ogres. To the players it seemed like it mattered. Now, I have to make it [I]actually[/I] matter? I have to add in actual ogres somewhere to fulfill a seeming they invented? And, what happens when there are people in the setting who give misinformation for reasons? They can create situations in which it seems like choices matter, but don't. The ogre is told where to go find the party. This would violate the stated requirement - that what seems to matter must actually matter. Do we now only ever give the players correct information, to make this happen? I think the term you want for this is "bait and switch". And, yeah, frequently this can be deeply unsatisfying for the player. But this certainly isn't the "nobody knew about the ogre, so I moved it" case. So, I think this boils down to only a limited set of cases, rather than the general one you state above. And it amounts to - screw with the PCs, but don't screw with the players. [/QUOTE]

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