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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 8348908" data-attributes="member: 82106">Right, but ALL Greyhawk does is add damage by weapon type, many new weapons, varying damage and attack routines for monsters, etc. It literally says NOTHING about the process of combat at all. It doesn't even reproduce or modify that alternative table from Men and Magic. Technically you could even use all its new stuff with the OLD combat table, presumably!Now, I agree with you, practically nobody used the Chainmail combat table, even pre-Greyhawk, IME. I'm pretty sure the GM of our first game used some variation of the "Roll Initiative" version of the overall Chainmail rules on page 9. I think that was pretty universal too, since the 'write it all down each turn' version is both tedious and seems more intended for a game with 2 sides AND a referee. I assume, but I'm not sure, that he also went by the page 25 "man to man melee" part, but that just seems to alter the "melee damage is applied after all attack rolls by both sides" part of page 9. I will note that both these choices seem at least similar to what 1e proposes (though oddly not similar to Holmes, which claims to be a codification of original D&D). I didn't know the DM of that game really well, but I don't even think he was that much of a hard-core gamer, so I doubt he'd gone to Gencon and found out how it was done in Wisconsin. He must have just logically figured out the easiest/best way.Well... interestingly, in 1978 I moved and joined a LARGE gaming club. It had 100's of active members, and naturally hosted a lot of D&D games of various sorts. The ones that were long ongoing campaigns did things in a variety of ways, even then (The DMG wasn't out yet at that point, so OD&D/Holmes was still the only published stuff on combat). I can't say if any of them thought their game was 'variant' or not, lol. Each game, even the ones that worked in mostly what we now think of as the 'classic way' published a sheet (or 10) of 'campaign rules' that explained how various specific things worked, like combat, that were 'grey areas'. I think some of them also had additional 'stuff' like maybe using Arduin Grimoire magic or some other spell point system, or whatever. THOSE they did consider 'variants'. I think one or two guys had invented totally novel combat systems as well.Anyway, by then, those of us who played 'small games' (IE without mass combat on sand tables and such) just used the Holmes rules, except you had to ignore the silly rule about some weapons getting double or half rate of attacks. At least those rules settled the initiative and who damages who first questions. I'd still love to know where Eric got 'Dex order' from though, I really cannot find a hint of it in any other place except his Basic rules.</blockquote>

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