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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 6636201" data-attributes="member: 3400">I think you're failing to make a break from your experiences in earlier editions and it undermines your analysis. The effort it takes to go from 1st to 20th level is greatly reduced compared to 1e, so the length of time it takes to face those pit fiends and balrogs isn't particularly outside the range of facing them in 1e as far as invested play time goes. So I think your assertion that it actually pushes high level play out is mistaken.I also have no idea where you're getting the idea that you need to be 25th level in 3e to do the things you could do in 1e at 18th level.I think there's plenty of room to debate how successful (or not) 3e's rules were at supplying a robust high level experience, but I don't think your analysis is persuasive. And, though my data are anecdotal because they are based on my experiences and circles of players that I know, 3e certainly led to more people I know getting up to 15th level and above compared to 1e or 2e. My experience with 3e (and PF) is that the rules truly did make higher level PCs more accessible without having to generate the PCs at a high level in the first place.</blockquote>