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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Shemeska" data-source="post: 3417526" data-attributes="member: 11697">Before we speculate much, I think we need to make a seperation of any putative period of evil on the prime material from the history of the Outer (and Inner) planes. The prime material is hideously young compared to the other planes. The fiends were ancient before the first ameoba spawned from the primordial muck, ancient before the first Aboleth was created (perhaps by chance) by entities not even native to the multiverse of the Great Wheel. And a nonmaterial form of the pure alignments (NG, NE, LN, CN, N) were warring before the metaphysical reality of the outer planes took form, and some proto-version of the outer planes existed well before the prime material (a discussion of the relative formation of the mixed alignment planes, and their appearance at what point relative to the prime and inner planes is another thread entirely, and very speculative especially for the upper planes).The inner planar wars of Law versus Chaos were happening only a short while after mortal life first appeared on the prime, because there were mortal souls to spawn the tanar'ri soldiers of the Queen of Chaos. It's debateable whether the first gods had been spawned from mortal belief at this point or not (because gods aren't mentioned by the histories of the fiends till after the formal start of the Blood War between the Tanar'ri and Baatezu).The fiends don't appear to have had much interest in the prime material, and for a long while many of the fiends knew that larval souls were popping up on their planes from somewhere else, but they didn't backtrace to the source of them till much later. Exploitation came first and explanation came later. The beings of the inner planes probably had more immediate impact, but I'm content to allow the prime material to have developed largely without outside influence for a good while, excepting the (perhaps inadvertant) creation of the Aboleths.Tharizdun is ancient as well, but based on when he seems to have been making an appearance in certain events on the inner planes, he might not be a god in the conventional sense. He's an open question, but I'd prefer to leave some of his mystery a mystery in that regard. He might have been spawned in the inner planes as a sort of autoimmune reaction to physical/material reality to itself, or he might have come from another multiverse entirely (the far realm or another one), or he might be from a prior incarnation of the Great Wheel (though that has too many Galactus similarities to my liking).Deities of course appear on the scene historically late in the grand scheme of multiversal time. (I'll admit that I rather like the notion of some of the earliest gods being formed from the faith of their worshippers specifically out of those mortals' need for deliverance from the Aboleths).</blockquote>

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