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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Walking Dad" data-source="post: 5707869" data-attributes="member: 59043">Similar here.Every one may re-check that my two 1st characters in living 3.5 / Pathfinder games were a healbot/group-buffer cleric and a monk.I like shapeshifting of all kind, so I also like druids.I dislike choosing spells each day, so I prefer spellcasters with a 'known spell' list (I still wait for this option for druids in Pathfinder).So I don't need tier 1 or optimized classes or choose my class with these things in mind.---Why can hey max out dex? They also need Str, some Con and currently Wis. Also, everyone may wear bracers of armor. But the other classes don't need to.So, are they replacing rogues (skills) or are viable fighters (combat)?BTW, I know many people preferring rogues over monks (but I prefer monks, too).Shield, heavy armor, small Dex bonus, neck slot free for amulet of natural armor, not being the class' 'weapon slot'.The value of touch AC varies much by campaign. Most creatures (AFAIK) attack non-touch AC.I was just saying that the monks saves have their equal. With full Bab, more HP and half-spellcasting.They have other nifty abilities. Evasion is obtainable as an item and their higher HP makes damage half effects form Fortitude and Will attacks (few they might be) less severe.I don't like classes needing an even more specific item tree than the other classes. Unarmed and natural armor bonus are also on the same slot.2d10 is an average of 9. What is his Str bonus? And 7-9 attacks only if he doesn't move more than 5ft.+4 and 1 energy or +3 and holy is the highest level item he can ever get. Weapons can get much higher (and don't block the neck slot).Every character and class should. This isn't monk specific.I have not seen them in play yet.But the first one cannot not be taken before level 12 as a single class monk. And I don't see an ability to use flurry of blows with it (I maybe missing it, using currently only the SRD.An I know players who love to play rogues. And I like to play monks, too. May I not suggest improvements to things I like?Never said that. But I have seen many ineffective monks in action.Why? Because he can run away quickly? (serious question)Yes, monks have good defenses vs AoE and Touch target enemies (mostly some casters, who have also other spells on their list, but not necessarily ready).At level 12, most of my players don't need a monk to do this. And spellcasters can do it much earlier and can take others with them.I really can't help but think no one plays rogues in your guy's  campaigns, so you've never really seen high level rogues in action.  Whereas I see them in action almost every campaign. They are always a  huge pain in my behind as a fourth character. Far moreso than any monk  could ever hope to be.And this is also true.Yes, MAD is less a problem with higher point buy.But if you roll, it can prevent you from playing the class effectively.</blockquote>

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