Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Why did they change the Keen rule and not the property?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="comrade raoul" data-source="post: 1002767" data-attributes="member: 554"><p>First, the character's threat range is 10-20, not 9-20 (18-20 base, 15-20 Improved Critical, 12-20 <em>keen</em>, 10-20 weapon master); also, burst weapons are actually very weak (do some math; you'll find it's always better to have an extra regular energy effect for +2d6 all the time than a burst effect for +1d6 and the occasional +1d6+1d10).</p><p></p><p>Consider the math before complaining about critical threat ranges. A pick with <em>keen</em> and Improved Critical effects deals just as much expected damage as a rapier with the same benefits; in practice, the pick is probably a bit better -- as isoChron pointed out, as a threat range becomes very large, it begins to show diminishing marginal returns, since it becomes increasingly likely that a d20 attack roll will be good enough to threaten a critical but not good enough to hit. (Note that this also means that, in a way, your desire for threat ranges to have diminishing marginal returns is already written implicitly into the rules.) Also note that a weapon master is much better off with a high multiplier weapon than a high threat range weapon, for reasons that should also be clear below (so it's hardly your rapier-wielding weapon master that's abusive -- it's more more likely to be your pick-wielder).</p><p></p><p>Why is this the case? Consider that, with an x2 multiplier, each point of threat range offers a 5% chance to do +100% damage, which means that each point of threat range with an x2 multiplier yields an additional 5% expected damage. But with an x4 multiplier, each point of threat range offers a 5% chance to do +300% damage, which means each point of threat range with an x4 multiplier yields an additional 15% expected damage. This is why 18-20/x2 rapiers are balanced against 20/x4 picks: each yields the same amount of additional expected damage (15%), and this is also why, with <em>keen</em> effects and Improved Critical, rapiers are balanced against picks, even though the rapier has a higher threat range -- the rapier has a 45% chance to cause +100% damage, and the pick has a 15% chance to cause +300% damage.</p><p></p><p>Finally, this is also why "flat" increases in threat range are inherently unbalanced in favor of high-multiplier weapons: the weapon master's +2 threat range with an x2 weapon yields a +10% chance to cause +100% damage, increasing expected damage by 10% (thus, a rapier master's 10-20/x2 threat range offers a total 55% additional expected damage), while the same bonus with an x4 weapon yields a +10% chance to cause +300% damage, increasing expected damage by 30% (thus, a pick master's 16-20/x4 threat range yields a massive 75% additional expected damage). This imbalance is true for all high-multiplier weapons (although it's less pronounced with axes or most swords, say) -- which means it's just irrational for you to be more concerned about the power of the rapier-wielding weapon master than the power of the high-multiplier one.This rule is unfair; see the math above. The "with a minimum of one each time" clause means that while your house-rule weakens high-threat-range characters, it leaves high-multiplier characters quite powerful. A rapier master's crit of 12-20/x2 offers an additional 45% expected damage (down from +55% originally), while the pick master keeps his old 16-20/x4 crit and is just as powerful (with +75% expected damage). Even if you don't use weapon masters, your system still favors high-multiplier weapons (but to a slightly lesser degree): just given <em>keen</em> and Improved Critical, the rapier's 13-20/x2 crit offers +40% expected damage, while the picks 18-20/x4 crit offers the stronger +45% expected damage. So unless you wanted to make high-multiplier weapons objectively better than high-threat-range weapons, don't adopt this rule.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="comrade raoul, post: 1002767, member: 554"] First, the character's threat range is 10-20, not 9-20 (18-20 base, 15-20 Improved Critical, 12-20 [i]keen[/i], 10-20 weapon master); also, burst weapons are actually very weak (do some math; you'll find it's always better to have an extra regular energy effect for +2d6 all the time than a burst effect for +1d6 and the occasional +1d6+1d10). Consider the math before complaining about critical threat ranges. A pick with [i]keen[/i] and Improved Critical effects deals just as much expected damage as a rapier with the same benefits; in practice, the pick is probably a bit better -- as isoChron pointed out, as a threat range becomes very large, it begins to show diminishing marginal returns, since it becomes increasingly likely that a d20 attack roll will be good enough to threaten a critical but not good enough to hit. (Note that this also means that, in a way, your desire for threat ranges to have diminishing marginal returns is already written implicitly into the rules.) Also note that a weapon master is much better off with a high multiplier weapon than a high threat range weapon, for reasons that should also be clear below (so it's hardly your rapier-wielding weapon master that's abusive -- it's more more likely to be your pick-wielder). Why is this the case? Consider that, with an x2 multiplier, each point of threat range offers a 5% chance to do +100% damage, which means that each point of threat range with an x2 multiplier yields an additional 5% expected damage. But with an x4 multiplier, each point of threat range offers a 5% chance to do +300% damage, which means each point of threat range with an x4 multiplier yields an additional 15% expected damage. This is why 18-20/x2 rapiers are balanced against 20/x4 picks: each yields the same amount of additional expected damage (15%), and this is also why, with [i]keen[/i] effects and Improved Critical, rapiers are balanced against picks, even though the rapier has a higher threat range -- the rapier has a 45% chance to cause +100% damage, and the pick has a 15% chance to cause +300% damage. Finally, this is also why "flat" increases in threat range are inherently unbalanced in favor of high-multiplier weapons: the weapon master's +2 threat range with an x2 weapon yields a +10% chance to cause +100% damage, increasing expected damage by 10% (thus, a rapier master's 10-20/x2 threat range offers a total 55% additional expected damage), while the same bonus with an x4 weapon yields a +10% chance to cause +300% damage, increasing expected damage by 30% (thus, a pick master's 16-20/x4 threat range yields a massive 75% additional expected damage). This imbalance is true for all high-multiplier weapons (although it's less pronounced with axes or most swords, say) -- which means it's just irrational for you to be more concerned about the power of the rapier-wielding weapon master than the power of the high-multiplier one.This rule is unfair; see the math above. The "with a minimum of one each time" clause means that while your house-rule weakens high-threat-range characters, it leaves high-multiplier characters quite powerful. A rapier master's crit of 12-20/x2 offers an additional 45% expected damage (down from +55% originally), while the pick master keeps his old 16-20/x4 crit and is just as powerful (with +75% expected damage). Even if you don't use weapon masters, your system still favors high-multiplier weapons (but to a slightly lesser degree): just given [i]keen[/i] and Improved Critical, the rapier's 13-20/x2 crit offers +40% expected damage, while the picks 18-20/x4 crit offers the stronger +45% expected damage. So unless you wanted to make high-multiplier weapons objectively better than high-threat-range weapons, don't adopt this rule. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Why did they change the Keen rule and not the property?
Top