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<blockquote data-quote="Ovinomancer" data-source="post: 7847333" data-attributes="member: 16814">I did not.&nbsp; I also playtested.&nbsp; Red Box Basic Set initiate, myself.&nbsp; Then every edition after.No, it isn't.&nbsp; Music is for everyone, but it doesn't owe you anything.&nbsp; You're mistaking the claim as a guarantee of happiness when it decidedly is not.Sure, right after you brush the straw off -- no one made this argument.&nbsp; You claimed 5e was failing as a big tent game because people, like dnd4vr were discontented.&nbsp; I pointed out that the size of the tent is, indeed, very big.&nbsp; You now claim that addressing your claim of lack of popularity with evidence of popularity is an appeal to popularity?&nbsp; Protip -- when popularity is brought up, it isn't an appeal to popularity to point out how popular something is.&nbsp; That's, like, on topic.&nbsp; And, no one has claimed it's flawless due to popularity -- I was addressing your big tent claim.If it's not a big difference, why the big complaint it's missing?&nbsp; If it adds little, why is it a problem?&nbsp; It doesn't conceptually address anything aside from the legacy that fighters get a higher number in this column that non-fighters.&nbsp; That's not a sufficient argument, while it may be a valid feeling.No, the fighter is given edges in many other areas of the combat engine -- damage output, number of attacks, ability to surge, higher AC, higher hitpoints, subclass abilities, etc.&nbsp; This is, effectively, a spreadsheet argument that since the fighter doesn't have a legacy plus 1 in this column, there's a problem.&nbsp; It's flawed, because the biggest change in 5e is to the probability engine.&nbsp; Noticing this also affects the 'to hit' column, which is in the probability engine, is like noticing that you still roll a d20 -- trivially uninteresting.Oh, I guess wizards are ruined because spell descriptions changed, then?&nbsp; Rogues don't roll percentiles, so they suck now, too?This is splitting hairs.&nbsp; Fighters are more effective in 5e because they're not overshadowed by magic as easily or as quickly and they strongly hold their own even in the optimization races.&nbsp; Hard to argue fighters are worse off when they still are tier 1 for optimizers.No one can in 5e, so that's not a fighter specific complaint.&nbsp; Pick a goalpost, Tony.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Ovinomancer, post: 7847333, member: 16814"] I did not. I also playtested. Red Box Basic Set initiate, myself. Then every edition after. No, it isn't. Music is for everyone, but it doesn't owe you anything. You're mistaking the claim as a guarantee of happiness when it decidedly is not. Sure, right after you brush the straw off -- no one made this argument. You claimed 5e was failing as a big tent game because people, like dnd4vr were discontented. I pointed out that the size of the tent is, indeed, very big. You now claim that addressing your claim of lack of popularity with evidence of popularity is an appeal to popularity? Protip -- when popularity is brought up, it isn't an appeal to popularity to point out how popular something is. That's, like, on topic. And, no one has claimed it's flawless due to popularity -- I was addressing your big tent claim. If it's not a big difference, why the big complaint it's missing? If it adds little, why is it a problem? It doesn't conceptually address anything aside from the legacy that fighters get a higher number in this column that non-fighters. That's not a sufficient argument, while it may be a valid feeling. No, the fighter is given edges in many other areas of the combat engine -- damage output, number of attacks, ability to surge, higher AC, higher hitpoints, subclass abilities, etc. This is, effectively, a spreadsheet argument that since the fighter doesn't have a legacy plus 1 in this column, there's a problem. It's flawed, because the biggest change in 5e is to the probability engine. Noticing this also affects the 'to hit' column, which is in the probability engine, is like noticing that you still roll a d20 -- trivially uninteresting. Oh, I guess wizards are ruined because spell descriptions changed, then? Rogues don't roll percentiles, so they suck now, too? This is splitting hairs. Fighters are more effective in 5e because they're not overshadowed by magic as easily or as quickly and they strongly hold their own even in the optimization races. Hard to argue fighters are worse off when they still are tier 1 for optimizers. No one can in 5e, so that's not a fighter specific complaint. Pick a goalpost, Tony. [/QUOTE]

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