Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Why do 4e combats grind?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Zustiur" data-source="post: 4603223" data-attributes="member: 1544"><p>In that context the existence of powers has no direct affect on the possible variety... All I was trying to get across is that at-wills are essentially the same as the old 'full attack', in that they're used so often that they lose their charm. Full attack never pretended to be special in the first place.</p><p>The fights are different, but the level of tension and excitement varies less than it could. Precisely because after each 5 minute rest your characters 'reset' and dailies are the only excitement, because they're the only ones that don't get used in (nearly) every combat.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p>Again, the difference from my point of view, is that powers attempt to be exciting. They fail at this because they're seen too often. Whereas basic attacks and full attacks etc in earlier editions never tried to be cool in the first place, so they didn't 'fail'. I'm not arguing that playing full attack every round was exciting. I'm just saying that powers you use every round are equally uninspiring. The same would be said if you used disarm every round in 3E. It's exciting if it's used sparingly and thereby makes an impact on what is otherwise a repeat of normal effects, but used every time it is just as boring.</p><p></p><p>To take a different simile - Compare Australian Rules Football vs Soccer for a moment. In Australian rules a team may score say 20 goals, and their opponents might get 18 goals. <em>I</em> find this much less exciting than Soccer where one team might score 1 goal, and that one goal then <em>really counts.</em> This doesn't mean people don't find Australian Rules Football exciting, but I personally prefer to watch soccer. Others find soccer boring because 'nothing happens' all game except that one goal.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Absolutely, but I wasn't discussing tactical choice. I was talking about how sometimes Basic Attack + Push is no more exciting than Basic Attack alone.</p><p>Taking an extreme of that one example: 2 combatants with equal powers, HP etc on a flat field.</p><p>What difference does it make if they push each other around? Neither gains any benefit from doing so. Pushing only becomes exciting when there is something to push into, onto, off of etc. And of course when there are other combatants around to take advantage of the push. But the push itself is not exciting, the <em>possibilities</em> that are gained from it can be. Having the same set of possibilities (powers) in each combat is potentially less exciting than having varying sets of possibilities in every combat.</p><p></p><p>Having powers essentially reset in this manner reduces the variety from the point of view of each combat.</p><p>Another example: Imagine all powers were effectively dailies, but functioned multiple times per day, and the at will/encounter designation was only an indication of how many times you could use it in a given encounter. So you have 10 at wills, 3 encounters and 1 daily.</p><p>If you use up your 10 at wills in the first encounter, the remaining two encounters that day are automatically going to be different to the first one. Even if fought against the same monster type, in the same room. As you might encounter in a siege.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zustiur, post: 4603223, member: 1544"] In that context the existence of powers has no direct affect on the possible variety... All I was trying to get across is that at-wills are essentially the same as the old 'full attack', in that they're used so often that they lose their charm. Full attack never pretended to be special in the first place. The fights are different, but the level of tension and excitement varies less than it could. Precisely because after each 5 minute rest your characters 'reset' and dailies are the only excitement, because they're the only ones that don't get used in (nearly) every combat. Again, the difference from my point of view, is that powers attempt to be exciting. They fail at this because they're seen too often. Whereas basic attacks and full attacks etc in earlier editions never tried to be cool in the first place, so they didn't 'fail'. I'm not arguing that playing full attack every round was exciting. I'm just saying that powers you use every round are equally uninspiring. The same would be said if you used disarm every round in 3E. It's exciting if it's used sparingly and thereby makes an impact on what is otherwise a repeat of normal effects, but used every time it is just as boring. To take a different simile - Compare Australian Rules Football vs Soccer for a moment. In Australian rules a team may score say 20 goals, and their opponents might get 18 goals. [I]I[/I] find this much less exciting than Soccer where one team might score 1 goal, and that one goal then [I]really counts.[/I] This doesn't mean people don't find Australian Rules Football exciting, but I personally prefer to watch soccer. Others find soccer boring because 'nothing happens' all game except that one goal. Absolutely, but I wasn't discussing tactical choice. I was talking about how sometimes Basic Attack + Push is no more exciting than Basic Attack alone. Taking an extreme of that one example: 2 combatants with equal powers, HP etc on a flat field. What difference does it make if they push each other around? Neither gains any benefit from doing so. Pushing only becomes exciting when there is something to push into, onto, off of etc. And of course when there are other combatants around to take advantage of the push. But the push itself is not exciting, the [I]possibilities[/I] that are gained from it can be. Having the same set of possibilities (powers) in each combat is potentially less exciting than having varying sets of possibilities in every combat. Having powers essentially reset in this manner reduces the variety from the point of view of each combat. Another example: Imagine all powers were effectively dailies, but functioned multiple times per day, and the at will/encounter designation was only an indication of how many times you could use it in a given encounter. So you have 10 at wills, 3 encounters and 1 daily. If you use up your 10 at wills in the first encounter, the remaining two encounters that day are automatically going to be different to the first one. Even if fought against the same monster type, in the same room. As you might encounter in a siege. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Why do 4e combats grind?
Top