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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5896896" data-attributes="member: 87792">Where, pray tell, is this force? Absolutely nowhere in the rules I'm aware of - indeed, 4e characters are actually more self-sufficent than most 3.X characters that aren't tier 1 and being played as such.  And if someone isn't trying their best to outdo you - they are just trying to do something and they are still better than you at what you are trying to do then there is a problem with the system. This is where 3.X stands.  "Stealth is a hell of a lot better than invisibility because there is one single possible countermeasure to invisibility that only appears on teh wizard and bard spell lists." With Invisibility you can stand right in the middle of a whitewashed room and no one will see you. With Stealth, (or <a href="http://[I" target="_blank">http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/hide.htm]Hide</a>[/url])anyone with eyes is going to see you. As for <a href="http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/detectMagic.htm" target="_blank">Detect Magic</a>, you need to actually concentrate. And invisibility shows up as a faint aura - just like a +1 dagger. You can see the auras of the magical weapons a hidden foe is carrying. So no. Hide is not better than invisibility.  That doesn't stop one of my host's cats when we play! And an octopus can open a door. As can an ape.  1: The wizard can make the wands at mid level. And scrolls from level 1. The rogue never can.2: The rogue can not use the wands reliably until high level. The wizard can use wizard wands with no failure chance. So the wizard is better with the wizard wands than the rogue is.  So. If you throw the worldbuilding guidance out and consider the work done by the designers in setting the default world setting to be actively worse than useless, you can partially limit the wizard. And at four spells per spell level there's certainly room for invisibility - it's just that useful. Possibly not for knock. Depends how often locks appear. If I want a trickster or a utility mage I might well be using knock as my fourth second level spell (glitterdust, alter self, invisibility all being no brainers - with web and rope trick being normally ahead of knock). And yes, alter self and invisibility are both that good. If you want to be a blaster... but then blasters bore me.</blockquote>

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