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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5905244" data-attributes="member: 42582">In many level-based point buy systems (eg 3E's skills, Rolemaster, HARP, JC's (home?) system, etc) it is possible for a low-level PC to have a better bonus than many or most high level PCs.It is ubiquitous in Rolemaster, for example, for high level characters to have negative skill bonuses (because, depending on edition, skils with 0 ranks are -25 or -30, and very few PCs will have (i) ranks in every skill, or (ii) stat bonuses of +20 or better to compensate for all those skills with zero ranks). And a fairly optimised first level character can have a bonus of up to +80. (To contrast, at 20th level, bonuses of up to +120, or even above +150 for weapon skills, where bonus items are easier to come by, are not uncommon.) But that 1st level PC will probably have only one +80. Maybe two, if they are related skills and so able to share some bonus sources. And if they are in spheres of actitivty the other PCs care about, then they will be eclipsed by those PCs multiple bonuses of +90 and above. Whereas if they are in spheres of activity that the other PCs don't care about (wahoo!, I have +80 in seaborne navitagion and piloting through rocky shoals - too bad that the party is all living it up in a landlocked palace!) then how is that PC going to shine? Where is the opportunity going to come from.This list looks like its a list of tasks from a bundle of skill descriptions - maybe those tasks with DCs that a 1st level PC in the system in question can be expected to meet.But anyway, let's go through it:*Gathering food quickly - I've never had a 15th level party need food to be gathered quickly - they buy it, create it, pull it out of Handy Haversacks, whatever; *Navigating - I've never had a 15th level party get lost in natural environs (if in doubt they just fly up to get the lie of the land, or speak to a local nature spirit or the god of travel); *Dealing with animals/plants (like gathering herbs) - I could perhaps see this coming into play, but would not really think of it as shining - if the 15th level PCs can't do this already, they probably don't care much about animals or plants; *Knowledge about any number of topics (cities, nations, religion, undead, other planes, weather, and on and on) - in my experience, 15th level PCs tend to be very good at learning what they need to know (via research, past explorations, spells, skills, interrogations, etc), and if there is a secret they need that they haven't uncovered yet, it's not going to be something that a 1st level scholar would know; *Social aspects (including leadership, negotiation, intimidation, lying, detecting the truth, etc.) - again in my experience, the social encounters that pose a challenge to 15th level PCs are not ones that a 1st level bard can handle - in my current game one of the PCs has an NPC herald who is a 10th level minion (so in some sense low level), but that NPC doesn't shine - he provides +2 bonuses to appropriate social checks, adds colour, and is the butt of jokes; *Patching wounds, treating diseases, poisons, or infections, removing status effects, lessening penalties (from fatigue, etc.), etc - normally I think 15th level PCs handle this via magic rather than relying on a 1st level Heal skill check; *Discovering what was used to kill a creature, scouting ahead - these are potentially useful, and could save the need to deploy diviniation magic, but again I am not sure I would call discovering what was used to kill a creature "shining" (in my experience, it is a question that is relevant no more than once every 6 or more session), and as [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] noted upthread the 1st level scout who is scouting Mordor or the Elemental Chaos may not last long; *Keeping an eye out for things, an extra guy on shift during the night - as I said above, I don't think this adds very much, and it is hardly shining; *Crafting goods for the PCs, or making money for them on the side by selling it - I don't think being the labour in the other PCs' factory is shining, and in at least some assumed fantasy economies (at least any typical D&D one) is not going to contribute any signficant income; *Lugging around heavy stuff - I've never found this to be an issue for 15th level PCs, and in any event being a porter is not shining, in my view.I don't think it's just coincidence that the useful things I've identified that a 1st level PC might do are dealing with animals, plants, dead bodies and scouting. These are all exploration activities which a traditional party may not be good at, or at least not optimised for, and might benefit from having even a low level character perform. As I've said, though, I don't think this is going to involve shining.The problem with the other stuff on the list is that it's either operational (foraging, healing, navigating, crafting, lugging), and 15th level PC parties have almost always already solved the operational aspects of the game - that's part of what being high level means, at least in D&D and similar games - or it's central to the conflicts that matter in play (secret knowledge, social) and a 1st level PC isn't going to be up to the job, anymore than the rest of the party was when they were 1st level.</blockquote>

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