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Why do all classes have to be balanced?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5905998" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>I picked the example I did because I was thinking of the Summoner class. And for a Summoner, Summon Monster X isn't normally their main means of fighting. It's what they do after their Eidolon is dead. I also quite deliberately picked a L13 summoner to compare to the L15 fighter - spotting the fighter two levels before we'd started.</p><p></p><p>So let's see what I'm handicapping the summoner by by not taking into account or deliberately surrendering</p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">The Eidolon</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">A powerful spell list</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Two character levels</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">Four feats</li> </ul><p>That's quite a lot to give up. And even surrendering those I can still challenge the fighter for more than half a dozen fights per day.</p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Ahem. Summoner. One stanard action casting time.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Correction: Dispel Magic needs to win a caster level check to take a summoned monster out of the fight, completely wasting the <em>dispeller's </em>actions and a spell slot. If the dispelling caster loses then he's wasted his action entirely. If the dispelling caster <em>wins</em> and was using Greater Dispel Magic then he's exchanged a sixth level spell slot for a daily use of something I wasn't going to run out of anyway - and I still get a round of savaging the dispeller with the summoned tigers or lightning bolts. And can just do it again next turn. (If he was silly enough to use standard Dispel Magic then he'll just banish a single creature out of the pack I've summoned. I simply laugh at this point).</p><p></p><p></p><p>Doesn't do a lot. "Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature."</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I do hope that the caster tries either of those. Using his standard action to banish some of my summons with no chance of banishing them all (at least unless he either has 21HD or I only managed two tigers).</p><p></p><p>Dispelling and Banishing are defensive options that mean that the caster who uses them on summons is automatically losing the action duel. </p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>You're claiming that <em>Summon Monster</em> doesn't have much in the way of options? If I don't want charge-and-destroy, I'll summon D4+2 Bralani Azatas. Flying, lightning bolting, Wind Walling, healing. Talk to me about options again?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Less good than the <em>reserve</em> option for a Summoner two levels below him, accessible only without the Eidolon.</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>But the tigers come at night. With their voices, soft as thunder...</p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p>Pity about that will save...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Less useful than a crippled summoner two levels below his level. Just to establish an upper bound on his usefulness. Given that a summoner isn't considered the strongest class in PF (that would be the Wizard or Cleric, although the Summoner is probably number 3), we can cap the effective level equivalent of the fighter as significantly less than 13. For an estimate I'm going to say level 10 due to the versatility issue - and that at least means 4th level spells even if it takes away the meatshield and stun potential of the anklyosaurus herd (95 hp * D3+1 at L11) and the repeating multiple lightning bolts of the Bralani Azatas.</p><p></p><p>At an effective power level five levels behind the other PCs, and with no basic capabilities they can't cover (unlike a mage in a party of non-mages) how useful are you?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5905998, member: 87792"] I picked the example I did because I was thinking of the Summoner class. And for a Summoner, Summon Monster X isn't normally their main means of fighting. It's what they do after their Eidolon is dead. I also quite deliberately picked a L13 summoner to compare to the L15 fighter - spotting the fighter two levels before we'd started. So let's see what I'm handicapping the summoner by by not taking into account or deliberately surrendering [LIST] [*]The Eidolon [*]A powerful spell list [*]Two character levels [*]Four feats [/LIST] That's quite a lot to give up. And even surrendering those I can still challenge the fighter for more than half a dozen fights per day. Ahem. Summoner. One stanard action casting time. Correction: Dispel Magic needs to win a caster level check to take a summoned monster out of the fight, completely wasting the [I]dispeller's [/I]actions and a spell slot. If the dispelling caster loses then he's wasted his action entirely. If the dispelling caster [I]wins[/I] and was using Greater Dispel Magic then he's exchanged a sixth level spell slot for a daily use of something I wasn't going to run out of anyway - and I still get a round of savaging the dispeller with the summoned tigers or lightning bolts. And can just do it again next turn. (If he was silly enough to use standard Dispel Magic then he'll just banish a single creature out of the pack I've summoned. I simply laugh at this point). Doesn't do a lot. "Summoned creatures that are not evil are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature." I do hope that the caster tries either of those. Using his standard action to banish some of my summons with no chance of banishing them all (at least unless he either has 21HD or I only managed two tigers). Dispelling and Banishing are defensive options that mean that the caster who uses them on summons is automatically losing the action duel. You're claiming that [I]Summon Monster[/I] doesn't have much in the way of options? If I don't want charge-and-destroy, I'll summon D4+2 Bralani Azatas. Flying, lightning bolting, Wind Walling, healing. Talk to me about options again? Less good than the [I]reserve[/I] option for a Summoner two levels below him, accessible only without the Eidolon. But the tigers come at night. With their voices, soft as thunder... Pity about that will save... Less useful than a crippled summoner two levels below his level. Just to establish an upper bound on his usefulness. Given that a summoner isn't considered the strongest class in PF (that would be the Wizard or Cleric, although the Summoner is probably number 3), we can cap the effective level equivalent of the fighter as significantly less than 13. For an estimate I'm going to say level 10 due to the versatility issue - and that at least means 4th level spells even if it takes away the meatshield and stun potential of the anklyosaurus herd (95 hp * D3+1 at L11) and the repeating multiple lightning bolts of the Bralani Azatas. At an effective power level five levels behind the other PCs, and with no basic capabilities they can't cover (unlike a mage in a party of non-mages) how useful are you? [/QUOTE]
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