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Why do all classes have to be balanced?
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<blockquote data-quote="Neonchameleon" data-source="post: 5906335" data-attributes="member: 87792"><p>No. I'm a person who often wants to play a wizard. And to me, my conception of a wizard fits one of several archetypes (battlefield artillery/evoker is not one of them).</p><p> </p><p>The first and most obvious one is a trickster. Very illusion heavy, with some enchantment and shapeshifting thrown in for good measure. If this concept steps on the rogue's toes then I'm doing it right. It is basically a rogue backed with magic. There's nothing wrong with this concept - the fundamental problem arises that <em>I make a better rogue than the rogue</em>. I shouldn't - we should be complementary. It sucks that I do, for either the rogue, for me, or for us both.</p><p> </p><p>The second, and possibly more obvious one, is the loremaster. An old wizard who knows about things, or even a young research wizard interested in learning about the world. Possibly specialises in divination magic (and if not certainly uses it). But ultimately what he specialises in is being prepared and knowing and having the right tool for the job. And this, to me, is the only excuse for "Vancian" casting - that it allows you and encourages you to prepare for the eventualities you are likely to meet that day. And it's called "playing a wizard to its best advantage" (which when you have a starting Int of 18 should be permissable). But it's spectacularly overpowered.</p><p> </p><p>The third is the summoner. A classic form of magic - in some mythologies the <em>only</em> form of magic. Summoning creatures and bargaining with them to do your bidding. In 3.X, this is represented by the binder class - but in PF it's the Summoner. And as I've shown on this thread, the PF summoner when used even vaguely competently <em>smashes</em> the fighter of the same level. This should not be.</p><p> </p><p>Now in 3.X, all these are overpowered concepts. They aren't chosen to be overpowered. Tricksters are fun. Loremasters are how I see wizards, and Summoners as I've described them are a fairly classic type of magic - and one who deservedly get a class of their own in Pathfinder. And all of them are meant to be intelligent (hell, it's the primary stat of wizards). But if I don't give them an in character lobotomy or an intentional large set of handicaps (both of which subtract from my enjoyment of the game and make me feel like I'm patronising everyone else at the table - because I am)</p><p> </p><p>Because of the sheer unbalance of 3.X if I want to play a wizard using the wizard class I have two basic choices. Play a moron or be a jerk. I complain about how overpowered the wizard is and how useless the fighter is on message boards because I don't want to have this problem at the table itself.</p><p> </p><p>Which do you want me to do? Not play some of my favourite fantasy archetypes despite the game encouraging me to? Lobotomise a character that's meant to be based on wits? Or be a jerk?</p><p> </p><p>And if that is the choice you and the game designers are forcing on me, why do you consider this acceptable?</p><p> </p><p>Edit: [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION], I don't know about [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]. But I certainly see your list of things to do as more or less irrelevant by 15th in classic D&D level or things you hire people to do and certainly don't have them join the party. To illustrate the difference, you say "My PCs frequently visit sages, which might take days (if they need to travel to a city with a sage)," Now I have no problem with the PCs visiting sages. But taking days to get there? <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport" target="_blank">A 9th level party in 3.X/PF can travel 900 miles in the blink of an eye. And a 13th level party has no chance of failing to get there.</a> If it's on another plane, it only needs two spells - <a href="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/plane-shift" target="_blank">plane shift</a> before teleport. Your party might have 15HD but this doesn't make them the equivalent of a 3.X party. (And as for foraging, not a problem if you're just teleporting).</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Neonchameleon, post: 5906335, member: 87792"] No. I'm a person who often wants to play a wizard. And to me, my conception of a wizard fits one of several archetypes (battlefield artillery/evoker is not one of them). The first and most obvious one is a trickster. Very illusion heavy, with some enchantment and shapeshifting thrown in for good measure. If this concept steps on the rogue's toes then I'm doing it right. It is basically a rogue backed with magic. There's nothing wrong with this concept - the fundamental problem arises that [I]I make a better rogue than the rogue[/I]. I shouldn't - we should be complementary. It sucks that I do, for either the rogue, for me, or for us both. The second, and possibly more obvious one, is the loremaster. An old wizard who knows about things, or even a young research wizard interested in learning about the world. Possibly specialises in divination magic (and if not certainly uses it). But ultimately what he specialises in is being prepared and knowing and having the right tool for the job. And this, to me, is the only excuse for "Vancian" casting - that it allows you and encourages you to prepare for the eventualities you are likely to meet that day. And it's called "playing a wizard to its best advantage" (which when you have a starting Int of 18 should be permissable). But it's spectacularly overpowered. The third is the summoner. A classic form of magic - in some mythologies the [I]only[/I] form of magic. Summoning creatures and bargaining with them to do your bidding. In 3.X, this is represented by the binder class - but in PF it's the Summoner. And as I've shown on this thread, the PF summoner when used even vaguely competently [I]smashes[/I] the fighter of the same level. This should not be. Now in 3.X, all these are overpowered concepts. They aren't chosen to be overpowered. Tricksters are fun. Loremasters are how I see wizards, and Summoners as I've described them are a fairly classic type of magic - and one who deservedly get a class of their own in Pathfinder. And all of them are meant to be intelligent (hell, it's the primary stat of wizards). But if I don't give them an in character lobotomy or an intentional large set of handicaps (both of which subtract from my enjoyment of the game and make me feel like I'm patronising everyone else at the table - because I am) Because of the sheer unbalance of 3.X if I want to play a wizard using the wizard class I have two basic choices. Play a moron or be a jerk. I complain about how overpowered the wizard is and how useless the fighter is on message boards because I don't want to have this problem at the table itself. Which do you want me to do? Not play some of my favourite fantasy archetypes despite the game encouraging me to? Lobotomise a character that's meant to be based on wits? Or be a jerk? And if that is the choice you and the game designers are forcing on me, why do you consider this acceptable? Edit: [MENTION=6668292]JamesonCourage[/MENTION], I don't know about [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]. But I certainly see your list of things to do as more or less irrelevant by 15th in classic D&D level or things you hire people to do and certainly don't have them join the party. To illustrate the difference, you say "My PCs frequently visit sages, which might take days (if they need to travel to a city with a sage)," Now I have no problem with the PCs visiting sages. But taking days to get there? [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/teleport"]A 9th level party in 3.X/PF can travel 900 miles in the blink of an eye. And a 13th level party has no chance of failing to get there.[/URL] If it's on another plane, it only needs two spells - [URL="http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/plane-shift"]plane shift[/URL] before teleport. Your party might have 15HD but this doesn't make them the equivalent of a 3.X party. (And as for foraging, not a problem if you're just teleporting). [/QUOTE]
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