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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5908292" data-attributes="member: 6668292">I think your implied context was clear enough to me, which is why I said this (and quoted it again already once):It may have been more as you've described in the past with D&D. It doesn't need to stay that way for 5e. And I think my point is much more important to the overall discussion of 5e than trying to bicker about how past editions work, which I'm hoping to avoid.That's a good question. [MENTION=6689033]Steely_Dan[/MENTION] has a chunk of it, in that as you go up, you have higher damage output, better feats, etc. As there are prerequisites for some feats, this plays in. But, hit die plays an important part in just exactly what abilities you can have. Most abilities are capped at hit die +1. Base attack, defense bonus, skill ranks, trait ranks, base save, etc. are all capped at your hit die +1. So, a level 15 can have +16 base attack, while a level 3 can only have +4. Things like spell levels available to you are capped by hit die, too. Level makes a big difference in that regard.By hit die 15, I can have a character with a much higher bonus to things than a hit die 3. I have a lot more breadth in abilities, if that's what I wanted, too. But, a hit die 3 could still be built in such a way that he could mechanically contribute to a party of hit die 15s, if he picks up skills that they've neglected.Well, I thought from our past discussions about threats against high hit die creatures that it'd be clear that they don't die to the same threats (if they're built for combat). Last Wednesday, the party (four hit die 15s, with one hit die 14) was surprised attacked by a few dozen men. They reacted fast enough (even though surprised) that they were able to teleport a few hundred feet out of the enemies encircling them, and while a couple dozen arrows flew in, only one NPC dropped and one party member hit 0 hit points. They then teleported away altogether. A hit die 3 party wouldn't been cut down. There may have been a survivor or two for possibly up to three rounds depending on build, but it's very unlikely.While the hit die 15s had to retreat from the (originally six dozen, but by the second round eight dozen) enemies, they were able to escape, plan an ambush themselves, and get the job done that they needed to. A party of hit die 3's would stand little to no chance of succeeding in that same tactic. They might be able to talk them into a trade, but they'd need to be really good at it and roll high (which is possible, but very unlikely without a very devoted build).So, yes, you can continue to move the threat level up just fine in the system. I wasn't commenting on that when I said how someone can contribute. I mentioned skills. Now, someone could mechanically contribute in combat (giving someone a +6 to a combat roll) at hit die 1, but they'd need to be very, very focused on it, and they're risking making themselves a target, and they're lacking hit die 15 saves, AC, and hit points. But as far as skills go? They can definitely drive the game forward, and a hit die 1 can definitely contribute with them if the PCs are lacking them. And, really, that's why I listed skill uses, and mentioned that it'd be harder to contribute in combat.That's just what I'm trying to say. In 5e, you can make a game where a level 1 can consistently meaningfully contribute to a level 15 party. It may not be in combat as well, but you can certainly design a system that helps with it. This is especially true in a system that has even flatter math than mine (which caps at about +19 natural bonus to attack rolls at hit die 20, with incredible focus on attacking). So, again, I'm commenting about game theory and how this could end up in 5e. I have little interest in arguing over how badly D&D has done this historically. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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