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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5908594" data-attributes="member: 6668292">Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. You said you can't meaningfully contribute. Did you mean that you can't kick as much ass as a level 15? Because hey, that's true. But, each round, you can give a bonus to whoever needs it, and even do it a second time per round reactively if someone is attacked. Giving everyone +2 to rolls, and two other people (one reactively for maximum effect) a +3 bonus to attacks, AC, Reflex or Will saves, THP, or etc. is pretty significant when we're working with the numbers we are.So, please, don't go changing this from "you can't meaningfully contribute" to "you can't do so in a way I like!" I have a pretty big problem with that, because I have a player who had a hit die 14 character who was based around that kind of support (Leadership for +5 bonuses to up to 6 people per round, aura of +2 to everything for up to 13 people around him, etc.), and he loved that style of play. He proactively went after that support style of play. You may not like it, but don't call it invalid because of it.It means adding to the group's success in a meaningful way. It means more than carrying goods around (unless that becomes a big issue), or taking a watch (unless the party really sucks at it, and watches are necessary).To me, giving a +7 bonus to someone who only gets +15 is meaningfully contributing, because you've upped his effectiveness by about 50%.If your Knowledge checks tell you that the guy you're about to attack doesn't care about his own life and it comes down to honor, you have powerful information on how to plan your attack.If you can identify what caused someone to die, and that he was left-handed, just shy of six feet tall, and fairly strong (but not exceptionally strong), that's useful when looking for suspects.If you can gather herbs and food that take up little space or weight so that the party isn't moving at half speed, that means a lot when you're moving about a continent when time matters (like it does now to my PCs).If you can get rid of status effects or give people rerolls on saves (or a roll if one isn't normally allowed), even mid-combat, I'd say that's meaningfully contributing.There are plenty of ways to drive the game forward based on nothing but your own skill. In combat, this is harder to do with the number disparity, but you can definitely increase the effectiveness of the party significantly (which is your best bet for helping a higher level party in combat), increasing your odds of success significantly. That's meaningful contribution. You are responsible for driving the story forward at parts of the session (you "shine"), and you are significantly increasing your odds of success (meaningful contribution).Ask my players if they want a guy who can reactively give someone who needs it a +3 to AC or a Reflex or Will save. You can bet what their answer is going to be. That's not counting any magic, or aid another, or flanking, or giving penalties to creatures for being attacked more than once in a round, or what have you. If that hit die 1 gave someone +2 to attacks with magic, then +3 with Leadership, then aided him for another +2 (with a -1 penalty on the bad guy now), then helped him flank for +1, it'd be a net swing of 9 (+8 good guy, -1 bad guy). When your passive attack bonus at hit die 15 is +15, that 9 swing is significant. To me, at least.Are you "shining" in combat? Well, you're not the one landing the blow, but you're sure as heck contributing to your group's success. No, you're not as good as the hit die 15. Yes, a hit die 15 with your abilities is better at it. But, as I originally said, a hit die 1 can most certainly meaningfully contribute, if not "shine" himself. He can even do so in-combat, if necessary, but out of combat is where his chances go up.I feel like you're really against the idea that you can meaningfully contribute as a hit die 1, for some reason. You don't seem to accept that it can be the case, or that if it is the case, that you aren't significantly more powerful at hit die 15. I'm trying to show that you can meaningfully contribute mechanically at hit die 1, not even convince you that it's necessarily better (that's just a matter of taste). Why you still doubt it is beyond me. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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