Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5909249" data-attributes="member: 6668292">It's got levels, they're just called "hit die" instead. It is classless, if that's what you meant (not trying to be snippy or anything, just trying to clarify if that's what you meant, or if you meant something else by "leveless level based game").Well, I wouldn't expect a 5th level party to plan an ambush against a group of warriors, especially ones with powerful creatures guarding magical items. Perhaps arrange for some sort of trade, or bluffing their way in, or maybe trying to sneak their way in. The level 15 party, however, just decided to jump the group, take the leader hostage, grab the item, and run before they could be found. I wouldn't expect a 5th level party in my game to accomplish that against the foes they did it to.You may not want "15th level characters" to be storming a mundane castle, but "15th level character" is just a metagame term that's being used. To you, that's in the middle of the Paragon Tier. In my RPG, first level is not the beginning of you being a Hero (Heroic Tier), nor is it assumed to be the case. The core assumptions of my RPG and 4e (or 3.X, or 2e, etc.) are pretty different. My RPG is generally less powerful. It can peak higher, but it's not assumed that you'll become mythic just based on "level" or anything.You want a system where the metagame phrase "15th level character" also has the connotations of surpassing mundane castles. I don't want any hit die capable of just bypassing that sort of challenge inherently. Perhaps certain builds, maybe around hit die 20, but they'd be lacking in other areas.But, while it's just a preference difference, it seems to be the root cause of our impasse. To you, it must seem weird to have a level 1 (just starting out as a Hero) be able to help level 15s (well into Paragon, far and above "mundane" obstacles like castles). But, your "level 15 character" assumption is not mine.And, perhaps, that's what I'm saying can change in 5e. The default assumption that you become mythic and level 1 characters can't contribute doesn't need to occur (this goes for both magicians and warriors, not to mention other common concepts). Will it turn out this way? It looks mixed. On the one hand you have flatter math, which can certainly help a level 1 stay relevant. On the other hand, you have design goals that include Fighters gaining "mythic" levels of power (a "mundane but not mundane" situation going on). So, we'll have to wait and see.I think I see what you're getting at, here. It's mistaken, but that's probably more due to unfamiliarity with my system than any sort of insult. At hit die 5, you're just about a normal soldier. You go up against two professional soldiers, you're in a very bad situation. You go up against ten, and you're almost certainly dead. At hit die 15, you're very far above a normal soldier. You can take on two professional soldiers with little risk, or go up against ten with the odds well on your side (if you're built to take on groups of men, through Whirling Movement combat maneuvers, the Adaptive Style feat, Improved Deflect Arrows, and the like).The bodyguard and the warrior in my hit die 15 party could probably take on ten professional soldiers each with little worry (both capable of taking on groups), where a hit die 5 warrior would get overwhelmed and be bested. A hit die 5 magician is capable of some nice things (conjuring food and water, and the like), but the hit die 15 magician is capable of instantaneously conjuring a 5-room stone house.Capabilities are going to vary, obviously, but to say that everyone at low hit die is capable of doing what everyone else at higher hit die is able to do is just showing a certain blatant ignorance of my RPG (and understandably so). The higher hit die you are, the more you can invest in the depth of your concept. A hit die 5 warrior is good (he'd stomp most people in the street), but he's about on par with any other professional soldier who has seen some action; a hit die 15 warrior, on the other hand, can reliably walk into a barracks and cleave down five men, grab another guy to use as a shield and hostage once he's surrounded, and then continue his mayhem.It's a matter of depth, and that's what being higher level brings. Hit die 5 is "I can fight better than most people"; hit die 15 is "I can fight better than all but the champions of nations and the best wandering swordsmen". Hit die 5 is "I'm a capable and helpful magician"; hit die 15 is "I can perform feats of magical prowess that are rarely seen, and can only be duplicated by archmages."The same, of course, is true for skills, too. I can help out with Knowledge at hit die 1, but a hit die 15 sage is a fountain of useful and relevant information. A hit die 1 hunter can provide food for people and navigate the wilderness, but a hit die 15 can gather food and herbs in a desert in the summer for a group of people without slowing down. And so on, and so on.I really hope that clears up what part levels play in my RPG.(As a side note, I think you're also talking about what threats you go up against. Sure, you can take on 10 guys now, but they're still mundane soldiers, right? Yes, that's true. Well, you can also create creatures in a way that pretty much negate lower level creatures, if they're built to do so. Add high damage reduction, spell resistance, and the like, and boom! Balor, dragon, or some other monster than low hit die creatures can't deal with, but high hit die creatures can. If you want to move to new realms as you level up, then introduce magic items like "gate stones" or something to allow that movement, and have the party encounter bigger threats. You're describing a style of play that has more to do with preference than mechanics in my game, since it can cater to mundane threats or "big threats only powerful creatures can deal with" at higher level. As far as other mechanical differences, see above.)It relates to game theory and what's in store for 5e. People claiming "a level 1 cannot meaningfully contribute to a level 15" are mistaken, in my mind. They can contribute, and it doesn't even need to be how I handled things (by toning down power, more or less; though to be fair, there was that PC in my game recently who was capable of wrestling dragons...).That is, you can make a game where a level 1 character can make checks even on a gonzo scale (closer to 4e's default tiers) from level 1, allowing them to drive the story forward, especially if the math if flatter (as they've said they intend 5e to be) and the gap between a skill roll at level 1 and level 15 isn't vast.So, how do my posts relate to D&D? I'm making a point about level 1s contributing (disagreement that level 1s can't contribute) based on game theory backed up by actual play experiences (references to my RPG), and how that might play into 5e based on what the designers have said (flatter math). In essence, like I've said before (and re-quoted a few times in this thread):So, there you are. That's how it's relevant, and what "my point" is. As always, play what you like <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

Verification