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Why do all classes have to be balanced?
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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 5909383" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>There's nothing wrong with that. Different players have different criteria for meaningfulness.</p><p></p><p>But I think you also have to consider the context of this discussion. It concerend a 1st level PC, not a 14th level one. And if the buffs (via aid another or whatever other route) that a 1st level PC is bestowing are as strong as the buffs that a 14th or 15th level PC is bestowing, we are once again talking about a game very different from D&D.</p><p></p><p>Of the games that I'm familiar with, the one that makes helping others most meaningful is Burning Wheel. But it has sophisticated helping mechancis that tie in, in a variety of ways, to the advancement mechancis (for both helper and helped) and to the action resolution mechanics (most action resolution is conflict rather than task-focused, and the helping colours the scene and hence the resolution).</p><p></p><p>I'm reading threads around here that say things like "instead of fighting the guards at the door, the rogue might poison their lunch". In my view, there is a near enough to zero likelihood that, in the D&Dnext era, we will see parties with rogues waiting for the rogue to poison the lunches of the guards before trying to go through the door. The rogue will help contribute stealth to the attack, but (in my view) that is as far as it will go.</p><p></p><p>And there is a reason for this. To make poisoning the lunch as viable as just bumping them off in an ambush, you need an action resolution system that makes both approaches equally viable, in terms of (i) time at the table, (ii) simplicity of resolution, (iii) grippingness of resolution, (iv) likelihood of success relative to a default amount of effort in character building and action declaration, and (v) maybe some other things I can't think of at the moment.</p><p></p><p>D&D has never had this. And I seriously doubt that D&Dnext will. Because one fairly clear feature of D&Dnext will be it's difference from significant metagame-y aspects of 4e. And you can't tick my boxes (i) to (iv) without having a metagame aspect to your action resolution (I think it has to be scene-based, to start with).</p><p></p><p>D&Dnext <em>could</em> be many things. But I doubt that it will be radically different from D&D traditions when it comes to expectations about how scenes are framed and resolved.</p><p></p><p>I can build 1st level HARP or RM PCs who can make a meaningful contribution in partnership with a 15th level HARP or RM wizard. The wizard will have pox defences, limited hit points, and little ability to cast spells while being attacked. The 1st level PC, with maximum melee skills and heavy armour wearing skill, can play a vital defensive role (some call it the "meatshield"). And when the pair are waylaid by 5 ruffians in an alleway, the 1st level PC might even do a better job of things than the wizard, if the wizard is not a multi-target combat specialist but (say) a diviner and single-target enchanter. And against an AoE attack, the 1st level PC might be just as robust (I've GMed high level RM wizards with less resilience to physical damage than 1st level RM warriors).</p><p></p><p>I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of PC builds, and scenarios, are impossible a priori. They're saying that they are not a singificant part of D&D. And are very unlikely to be on the radar for D&Dnext.</p><p></p><p>The flatter maths seems to be focused primarily on action resolution bonuses (including attack bonuses) and DCs (including defence bonuses). I doubt that it will affect hit points (otherwise D&D won't support it's traditional gonzo play). I doubt tht it will affect damage (otherwise orcs won't turn into de facto minions against higher level PCs). I would expect a 1st level PC in D&Dnext to be unlikely to survive more than a round or two mixing it up with 15th levels, because (like the orcs) s/he will be a minion who gest squashed in one hit.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 5909383, member: 42582"] There's nothing wrong with that. Different players have different criteria for meaningfulness. But I think you also have to consider the context of this discussion. It concerend a 1st level PC, not a 14th level one. And if the buffs (via aid another or whatever other route) that a 1st level PC is bestowing are as strong as the buffs that a 14th or 15th level PC is bestowing, we are once again talking about a game very different from D&D. Of the games that I'm familiar with, the one that makes helping others most meaningful is Burning Wheel. But it has sophisticated helping mechancis that tie in, in a variety of ways, to the advancement mechancis (for both helper and helped) and to the action resolution mechanics (most action resolution is conflict rather than task-focused, and the helping colours the scene and hence the resolution). I'm reading threads around here that say things like "instead of fighting the guards at the door, the rogue might poison their lunch". In my view, there is a near enough to zero likelihood that, in the D&Dnext era, we will see parties with rogues waiting for the rogue to poison the lunches of the guards before trying to go through the door. The rogue will help contribute stealth to the attack, but (in my view) that is as far as it will go. And there is a reason for this. To make poisoning the lunch as viable as just bumping them off in an ambush, you need an action resolution system that makes both approaches equally viable, in terms of (i) time at the table, (ii) simplicity of resolution, (iii) grippingness of resolution, (iv) likelihood of success relative to a default amount of effort in character building and action declaration, and (v) maybe some other things I can't think of at the moment. D&D has never had this. And I seriously doubt that D&Dnext will. Because one fairly clear feature of D&Dnext will be it's difference from significant metagame-y aspects of 4e. And you can't tick my boxes (i) to (iv) without having a metagame aspect to your action resolution (I think it has to be scene-based, to start with). D&Dnext [I]could[/I] be many things. But I doubt that it will be radically different from D&D traditions when it comes to expectations about how scenes are framed and resolved. I can build 1st level HARP or RM PCs who can make a meaningful contribution in partnership with a 15th level HARP or RM wizard. The wizard will have pox defences, limited hit points, and little ability to cast spells while being attacked. The 1st level PC, with maximum melee skills and heavy armour wearing skill, can play a vital defensive role (some call it the "meatshield"). And when the pair are waylaid by 5 ruffians in an alleway, the 1st level PC might even do a better job of things than the wizard, if the wizard is not a multi-target combat specialist but (say) a diviner and single-target enchanter. And against an AoE attack, the 1st level PC might be just as robust (I've GMed high level RM wizards with less resilience to physical damage than 1st level RM warriors). I don't think anyone is saying that these sorts of PC builds, and scenarios, are impossible a priori. They're saying that they are not a singificant part of D&D. And are very unlikely to be on the radar for D&Dnext. The flatter maths seems to be focused primarily on action resolution bonuses (including attack bonuses) and DCs (including defence bonuses). I doubt that it will affect hit points (otherwise D&D won't support it's traditional gonzo play). I doubt tht it will affect damage (otherwise orcs won't turn into de facto minions against higher level PCs). I would expect a 1st level PC in D&Dnext to be unlikely to survive more than a round or two mixing it up with 15th levels, because (like the orcs) s/he will be a minion who gest squashed in one hit. [/QUOTE]
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