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Why do all classes have to be balanced?
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<blockquote data-quote="JamesonCourage" data-source="post: 5909853" data-attributes="member: 6668292"><p>Oh. I missed that point, then, because it runs counter to most of my experience. Not that I don't believe you, just that's it's not intuitive to me. If someone in my group of players has a skill that makes them more likely to succeed (while fitting within whatever moral code they've chosen), they're very likely to use that skill set to achieve their goals. If that means the Fighter skips head to head combat this time, so be it.</p><p></p><p>It's interesting that "most" other groups will play in such a way that accommodates the Fighter but not the Rogue. Is it because they can both "contribute" by "stabbing sharp things through enemies" whereas the Fighter can't poison the guards? Is it more a focus on "everyone contributes now" than "everyone shines in their area"? Honest questions.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I use an extended skill resolution system, that has a frame similar to that of skill challenges. Many times it has come down to "one more success and you achieve your goal, but one more failure and you fail at it." I've found <em>plenty</em> of tension in those moments. Especially if they've maxed out on failures early (2/3), and they start getting successes. In such a scenario, each success brings a little more hope, then a little more, then a lot more, and the tension builds.</p><p></p><p>Combat is also tense, mind you. My group does enjoy what you've described, so I see the appeal to choosing combat over poisoning if you're going for full blown tension for everyone rather than tension with the rogue. In my experience, the players can get especially tense when only one or two members participate in that type of extended skill resolution, though, because they're essentially helpless. When everything is resting on someone else and you can't contribute yourself but you need them to succeed in order for you to succeed, that's quite tension building. It's like if there's only one guy left in combat, and he's facing down that last bloodied orc, and they're trading blows, and he downs the orc while in single digit HP. Cheers from the table, because of the tension that arose.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I don't see how things like Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Disguise, and the like would be great to use off the character sheet. My RPG has quite specific rules on sneaking around, lying to people, disguising yourself, slipping something into something else without it being seen, and the like. It is true that 4e basically cut these down to Bluff, Stealth, and Thievery (as far as I know), but that's still three skills that you can use to resolve action. Although I do see your point about involving the entire group, and that answers one of my earlier questions.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes, this is very different from my group. If they're considering poison, it's because they want stealth (something likely lost via a frontal assault). If they want speed, they'll choose to ambush instead. But, they'll pick their goal (stealth, speed, etc.) and then choose a course of action that best fits that goal, utilizing only one party member if necessary. So, the idea of "we'll just attack, because everyone gets to do that" isn't intuitive to me, but I do understand what you're saying. Thanks for the reply. As always, play what you like <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="JamesonCourage, post: 5909853, member: 6668292"] Oh. I missed that point, then, because it runs counter to most of my experience. Not that I don't believe you, just that's it's not intuitive to me. If someone in my group of players has a skill that makes them more likely to succeed (while fitting within whatever moral code they've chosen), they're very likely to use that skill set to achieve their goals. If that means the Fighter skips head to head combat this time, so be it. It's interesting that "most" other groups will play in such a way that accommodates the Fighter but not the Rogue. Is it because they can both "contribute" by "stabbing sharp things through enemies" whereas the Fighter can't poison the guards? Is it more a focus on "everyone contributes now" than "everyone shines in their area"? Honest questions. Well, I use an extended skill resolution system, that has a frame similar to that of skill challenges. Many times it has come down to "one more success and you achieve your goal, but one more failure and you fail at it." I've found [I]plenty[/I] of tension in those moments. Especially if they've maxed out on failures early (2/3), and they start getting successes. In such a scenario, each success brings a little more hope, then a little more, then a lot more, and the tension builds. Combat is also tense, mind you. My group does enjoy what you've described, so I see the appeal to choosing combat over poisoning if you're going for full blown tension for everyone rather than tension with the rogue. In my experience, the players can get especially tense when only one or two members participate in that type of extended skill resolution, though, because they're essentially helpless. When everything is resting on someone else and you can't contribute yourself but you need them to succeed in order for you to succeed, that's quite tension building. It's like if there's only one guy left in combat, and he's facing down that last bloodied orc, and they're trading blows, and he downs the orc while in single digit HP. Cheers from the table, because of the tension that arose. Well, I don't see how things like Hide, Move Silently, Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Disguise, and the like would be great to use off the character sheet. My RPG has quite specific rules on sneaking around, lying to people, disguising yourself, slipping something into something else without it being seen, and the like. It is true that 4e basically cut these down to Bluff, Stealth, and Thievery (as far as I know), but that's still three skills that you can use to resolve action. Although I do see your point about involving the entire group, and that answers one of my earlier questions. Yes, this is very different from my group. If they're considering poison, it's because they want stealth (something likely lost via a frontal assault). If they want speed, they'll choose to ambush instead. But, they'll pick their goal (stealth, speed, etc.) and then choose a course of action that best fits that goal, utilizing only one party member if necessary. So, the idea of "we'll just attack, because everyone gets to do that" isn't intuitive to me, but I do understand what you're saying. Thanks for the reply. As always, play what you like :) [/QUOTE]
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