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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 9602855" data-attributes="member: 42582">I don't really follow that last sentence. Playing or GMing a Hulk-like PC doesn't require complicated encumbrance rules.I think high-level D&amp;D-style fantasy works best when what is personal and what is &quot;external&quot; are closely integrated. If the lives, hopes etc of the PCs are disconnected from the mythic reality of the (imagined) world, then high level play doesn't offer anything of particular interest.Aragorn-esque or Arthurian &quot;true kingship&quot; stories are one example; but there can be others too.In my high-level 4e D&amp;D game, the PCs defeated Orcus - thus realising a crucial ambition of the Raven Queen, who had two exarchs and another powerful follower among the PCs - and also Lolth, just realising the dream of the Drow PC to free the Drow from her tyranny and undo the sundering of the Elves.In a high-level Rolemaster game that I GMed, one of the PCs was able to rescue the &quot;dead&quot; god that he served from the void. Another PC was able to help resolve various conflicts among the Storm and Sea Lords, thus clearing the way to - and showing his worthiness to - wed the dragon whom he had been courting for many, many levels.I think this is a contentious reading of D&amp;D.There's an alternative reading, which is that certain sorts of &quot;stories&quot; are level-dependent. For instance, meeting a Pit Fiend as an equal, or carving out a kingdom to rule, or travelling places by way of teleportation - on my understanding of D&amp;D (informed primarily by B/X, AD&amp;D and 4e D&amp;D), these are not things that can occur at any level.When these sorts of events or experiences are intertwined with personal aspirations and/or self-realisation - which to me is the essence of epic/mythic fantasy - then I think high level play can have something to offer.I think 4e D&amp;D shows how this can be done within a D&amp;D framework.And my view - tentative, but based on a fair bit of observation of how people talk about their play, and how TSR/WotC present high level play - is that a big problem is that there is a reluctance to allow the sorts of stakes (and associated themes) that are central to epic/mythic fantasy as a part of D&amp;D play. And of course, high level play that is merely a continuation of fetch quests, looting dungeons, and the like won't offer anything that low level play doesn't.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 9602855, member: 42582"] I don't really follow that last sentence. Playing or GMing a Hulk-like PC doesn't require complicated encumbrance rules. I think high-level D&D-style fantasy works best when [I]what is personal[/I] and [I]what is "external"[/I] are closely integrated. If the lives, hopes etc of the PCs are disconnected from the mythic reality of the (imagined) world, then high level play doesn't offer anything of particular interest. Aragorn-esque or Arthurian "true kingship" stories are one example; but there can be others too. In my high-level 4e D&D game, the PCs defeated Orcus - thus realising a crucial ambition of the Raven Queen, who had two exarchs and another powerful follower among the PCs - and also Lolth, just realising the dream of the Drow PC to free the Drow from her tyranny and undo the sundering of the Elves. In a high-level Rolemaster game that I GMed, one of the PCs was able to rescue the "dead" god that he served from the void. Another PC was able to help resolve various conflicts among the Storm and Sea Lords, thus clearing the way to - and showing his worthiness to - wed the dragon whom he had been courting for many, many levels. I think this is a contentious reading of D&D. There's an alternative reading, which is that certain sorts of "stories" are level-dependent. For instance, meeting a Pit Fiend as an equal, or carving out a kingdom to rule, or travelling places by way of teleportation - on my understanding of D&D (informed primarily by B/X, AD&D and 4e D&D), these are not things that can occur at any level. When these sorts of events or experiences are intertwined with personal aspirations and/or self-realisation - which to me is the essence of epic/mythic fantasy - then I think high level play can have something to offer. I think 4e D&D shows how this can be done within a D&D framework. And my view - tentative, but based on a fair bit of observation of how people talk about their play, and how TSR/WotC present high level play - is that a big problem is that there is a reluctance to allow the sorts of stakes (and associated themes) that are central to epic/mythic fantasy as a part of D&D play. And of course, high level play that is merely a continuation of fetch quests, looting dungeons, and the like [I]won't[/I] offer anything that low level play doesn't. [/QUOTE]

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