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<blockquote data-quote="sullivan" data-source="post: 2998850" data-attributes="member: 28152">Huh?&nbsp; Both of those system use a fundementally different combat paradigm than the &quot;my turn, then your turn&quot; that D&amp;D uses. They even use a different paradigm from each other.&nbsp; They also drop to the next granularity level below D&amp;D and, I know at least in Burning Wheel, the &quot;grappling&quot; is part of the deal.&nbsp; Lock, Throw Opponent, Tackle, etc. are on equal footing with Strike, Feint and so on.&nbsp; It goes so far as you can Lock someone into total submission while still wielding your weapon, if you are using one. Another very different thing is choosing combat actions before you know the exact state in which you'll be attempting them.Riddle of Steel I'm not as sure about since I've never played it myself. But from descriptions I've gotten it appears to drop perhaps even further in granularity and certainly in detail. The people that I personally know that played it also do real steel martial arts (not SCA) and they find it likely the closest to a medieval/sword combat simulation they've found in a game.&nbsp; Of course grappling isn't going to be that popular when most people have weapons.&nbsp; Because showing up empty handed at a sword fight is decidedly bad.&nbsp; Far worse than RPGs typically make it out to be.Curiously the same guy that made Burning Wheel is releasing Burning Empires at GenCon this year. It is a sci-fi type game, and it's combat in primarily based around shooting at other people/vehicles/spacecraft.&nbsp; It includes modern combat principles such as pushing opponents around with supressive fire and so on.&nbsp; You can still try punch someone or cut them down with a sword or drive over them with a tank, but that is handled more as an exception.&nbsp; Because bringing a knife to a gunfight is bad.Regarding the first part of your post, you are sounding surprisingly close to Ron's counterpart.&nbsp; All you really had to do is answer my question &quot;Or people that wrote the games at one point or another played D&amp;D?&quot; with &quot;Yes.&quot;&nbsp; <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink&nbsp; &nbsp; ;)"&nbsp; data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="sullivan, post: 2998850, member: 28152"] Huh? Both of those system use a fundementally different combat paradigm than the "my turn, then your turn" that D&D uses. They even use a different paradigm from each other. They also drop to the next granularity level below D&D and, I know at least in Burning Wheel, the "grappling" is part of the deal. Lock, Throw Opponent, Tackle, etc. are on equal footing with Strike, Feint and so on. It goes so far as you can Lock someone into total submission while still wielding your weapon, if you are using one. Another very different thing is choosing combat actions before you know the exact state in which you'll be attempting them. Riddle of Steel I'm not as sure about since I've never played it myself. But from descriptions I've gotten it appears to drop perhaps even further in granularity and certainly in detail. The people that I personally know that played it also do real steel martial arts (not SCA) and they find it likely the closest to a medieval/sword combat simulation they've found in a game. Of course grappling isn't going to be that popular when most people have weapons. Because showing up empty handed at a sword fight is decidedly [I]bad[/I]. Far worse than RPGs typically make it out to be. Curiously the same guy that made Burning Wheel is releasing Burning Empires at GenCon this year. It is a sci-fi type game, and it's combat in primarily based around shooting at other people/vehicles/spacecraft. It includes modern combat principles such as pushing opponents around with supressive fire and so on. You can still try punch someone or cut them down with a sword or drive over them with a tank, but that is handled more as an exception. Because bringing a knife to a gunfight is [I]bad[/I]. Regarding the first part of your post, you are sounding surprisingly close to Ron's counterpart. All you really had to do is answer my question "Or people that wrote the games at one point or another played D&D?" with "Yes." :) ;) [/QUOTE]

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