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Message: <blockquote data-quote="El Mahdi" data-source="post: 5846645" data-attributes="member: 59506">Ahhh, now we're getting into the crux of the problem with the systems: the mechanics have not adequately supported the archetypes.  I agree completely with you here.  It's unfortunate, but in an effort to make Rogues/Thieves more useful and contributary in combat, the mechanics have ended up making them the better martial character.  That's just not right. The Fighter should be the biggest damage dealer, bar none, period.  The Ultimate Soldier.  The Fighter is the one who's dedicated their life to martial mastery.  They can base their prowess on their speed, ability, or strength - or a combination of all.  They should have the greatest knowledge of and highest skill in the use of tactics, strategies, combat maneuvers, etc.  They have risen above their common soldier roots to be a Hero.  The one who stands in the vanguard and dares the enemy to face him.  The one you cannot pass without dealing with.  The one who keeps the hordes from getting to their weaker friends.  The one who when faced, you find yourself facing Death Itself. The Ranger should be the best scout, bar none, period.  They should have comparable combat skill with the Fighter, but lack proficiencies with as wide an array of weapons as the Fighter has.  They should have Stealth Skills, Tracking, and Yes: Sneak Attack/Back Stabbing.  They should be knowledgable of Military tactics, structure, and formations, so they can proficiently scout on enemies and relay such information.  They should be able to move through the woods, tracking their prey and scouting on their enemies in virtual invisibility.  And they should be able to operate and survive independently.  Able to avoid conflict when outnumbered and evade pursuit, but fight skillfully when necessary. Rogues should be the masters of Roguish Skills.  They've learned to fight either on the street or at the hands of a weapon master...but they have not undergone the extensive training of the Fighter.  They haven't endured long forced marches, dug defensive ditches, learned military formations and tactics, and endured daily combat training with nearly every weapon known to man.  They are Thieves, Thugs, Tricksters, Duelists, Swashbucklers and Pirates.  They are the masters of Stealth, avoiding face to face fights as much as possible, and above all: the masters of Dirty Tricks.  Their skills allow them to hold their own in combat, in a different way than the Fighter, but one that should never make them more lethal in a fight than the Fighter.  So, I think Back Stabbing/Sneak Attack should be a special maneuver, just like charging, or bull rushing, or grappling, etc. - one that any character can attempt regardless of class.  But martial classes (all martial classes) should have the option of having a bonus to Sneak Attacks/Back Stabbing based on the way one wants to build the character, and also make such a focus available as a Feat for any other class to take also.  Now the trick is developing mechanics that support that, while keeping all classes useful in all situations (but only Masters in some). It's a pretty tough job, but I think Monte and Company may be up to the task. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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