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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9028815" data-attributes="member: 82106">I agree with your initial prediction, we are now in total agreement, such things have none of the character of simulation whatsoever. They are narratives. Now, the structure of narratives has long been noted to be pretty regular, and if I recall my Graves, there are only a fairly small number of patterns that are enacted by them. So, sure you could state that the bear will now dip water out of the well. This "follows from the fiction" of the already established narrative, and honors the fictional position in which the bear has a bucket, etc. Certainly nobody is disputing that these techniques and factors are likely to be present in RPG play of probably all types (Toon and such aside). What I would point out is that where these 'functions' you speak of are coming from, the inputs to them, are not constraints created by the existence of inexorable laws within the fiction. These inputs are coming FROM THE MINDS OF THE AUTHORS, and the causality is like "why did the author write that the bear dipped water out of the well? Because of X, Y, and Z elements of their mental state, cause and effect!" This is why the fiction is not a simulation.In a more general sense, the real world in COHERENT. It is a single unitary thing in which ALL the parts form a single entirely interlocking pattern of causes and effects that is UNIVERSAL. So if there is any model whatsoever that can describe reality, then that model can certainly be used predictively. It is already known from the start that each fact is in accord with all the others, consistent with this model as an initial state. You pointed out that there may be simpler models that are adequately predictive as well, but the only reason this is so is because, AGAIN, there is a single unifying causative 'scheme' which unites all the facts. Imaginary worlds utterly lack this character. We cannot even say there are ANY models which are valid for them at all! And as you have just now pointed out, the concept of 'prediction' in a non-existent milieu is a meaningless concept.I mean, we do agree, there are statements we can make about the bear "it dips water out of the well with the bucket" vs "the bear spontaneously bursts into flames and goes up in smoke" where we find the former statement comports better with our experiences of the everyday world and therefor commands more verisimilitude. It might also lead in a more satisfactory narrative direction, coming closer to adhering to the universal rules of drama, and thus be more satisfying for whatever reasons it is that such dramas please us (I don't know, its not something I'm knowledgeable about).</blockquote>

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