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<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 9030500" data-attributes="member: 6696971">Well, my questions at the bottom (is this Simulationism/Immersionism...&quot;Gamey Nonsense&quot;...something else) were actual questions for folks to interrogate and answer independently of my own thoughts on the matter, because the interrogation of this issue I brought up seems a pretty central to this conversation.&nbsp; Further, &quot;Gamey Nonsense&quot; (as one of the epithets that was levied at 4e Defender mechanics) here isn't invoking Forge Gamism as an agenda (the design agenda whereby a system has integrated imperatives and system/procedure architecture which enables and demands that GM's devise and players, step up, face and defeat challenges via the skillful play paradigm embedded in the game).&nbsp; &quot;Gamey Nonsense&quot; here means sufficiently (or totally) artificial with respect to how the design of game engine levers, widgets, et al (design paradigm in total with respect to 4e Defender mechanics) work outside of the constraints of Simulationist/Immersionist priorities.&nbsp; There were many iterations of this attack levied at various 4e design elements (Defender mechanics well among them).&nbsp; One of the more prominent ones was the Dissociated Mechanics attack of days of yore.Outside of that, I do agree with your 3 and 4 and, much more importantly, that shared referents by the participants at the table are necessary (but not sufficient) to avoid Simulationism/Immersionism-prioritizing games from breaking down.&nbsp; And along those lines, that is one of the primary reasons a moment of play will break down.&nbsp; And I'm not just talking about Simulationism games (although that is the vast number of instances of breakdown).&nbsp; I'm talking about moments of Narrativism-designed games where a player might unconsciously smuggle in a Sim orientation to play whereby they map an outside (external to the game engine or the game's fiction or both) referent onto a moment of play that isn't/can't/shouldn't be governed by that outside referent.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 9030500, member: 6696971"] Well, my questions at the bottom (is this Simulationism/Immersionism..."Gamey Nonsense"...something else) were actual questions for folks to interrogate and answer independently of my own thoughts on the matter, because the interrogation of this issue I brought up seems a pretty central to this conversation. Further, "Gamey Nonsense" (as one of the epithets that was levied at 4e Defender mechanics) here isn't invoking Forge Gamism as an agenda (the design agenda whereby a system has integrated imperatives and system/procedure architecture which enables and demands that GM's devise and players, step up, face and defeat challenges via the skillful play paradigm embedded in the game). "Gamey Nonsense" here means sufficiently (or totally) artificial with respect to how the design of game engine levers, widgets, et al (design paradigm in total with respect to 4e Defender mechanics) work outside of the constraints of Simulationist/Immersionist priorities. There were many iterations of this attack levied at various 4e design elements (Defender mechanics well among them). One of the more prominent ones was the Dissociated Mechanics attack of days of yore. Outside of that, I do agree with your 3 and 4 and, much more importantly, that [I]shared referents by the participants at the table are necessary (but not sufficient) to avoid Simulationism/Immersionism-prioritizing games from breaking down[/I]. And along those lines, that is one of the primary reasons a moment of play will break down. And I'm not just talking about Simulationism games (although that is the vast number of instances of breakdown). I'm talking about moments of Narrativism-designed games where a player might unconsciously smuggle in a Sim orientation to play whereby they map an outside (external to the game engine or the game's fiction or both) referent onto a moment of play that isn't/can't/shouldn't be governed by that outside referent. [/QUOTE]

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