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Message: <blockquote data-quote="hawkeyefan" data-source="post: 9031399" data-attributes="member: 6785785">I don't see how this helps. I don't agree with that at all. Plenty of fiction is consistent, that doesn't mean it wasn't made up. But apply it how? Roll for results, or choose from the list of potential results? I think they often do, yes. Most of the games I play that fall into the narrative bucket tend to have some pretty strong gamist leanings. Not all, I'd say, and not always to the same extent, but they're a factor. That's fair. I have a hard time accepting that such games have cast aside any gamist leanings, though, so much as they've considered both at the design stage and are trying to use simulation in a way that delivers an engaging game. That's because as it's typically being described in this thread, simulation seems purely one-sided, and that's the GM side. So I am unclear how the players can enjoy simulation in that case. If we start to make the distinctions that [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] makes above, then I can start to see it because then the players are involved in it. But if we do that, then we're using yucky Forge waffle and many don't likey. I don't think the world was crafted with sim priorites. I think it was crafted to make a compelling game that suited the genre and themes that the game is going for. It's about crime, so it's always night time. It's about pressure, so you can't get out of the city. It's about upsetting the system, so you can't do anything without disrupting someone else's plans. I think that once those kinds of things were decided, then the world was crafted to suit those needs. But there is consideration given to make sense of the world. Things like food and where it comes from and that kind of stuff have been given some consideration. Certainly the ideas of corruption and power structures and how societies work all resonate as pretty realistic (depending of course on how people decide to play it). But at the end of the day, it's clearly a fantasy setting. But I don't think most game settings can escape the fantasy label enough to really be held up as paragons of simulation. Most D&D settings are clearly fantastic, even nonsensical in some ways.</blockquote>

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