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<blockquote data-quote="Lanefan" data-source="post: 9035158" data-attributes="member: 29398">Defeated once and for all, or defeated until-unless a different in-fiction approach is tried?&nbsp; Or put another way, must that defeat be permanent or is it merely a here-and-now defeat that can maybe be overcome later?&nbsp; There's a big difference.For example, if the goal is to get safely through the door and the action declaration is to pick the lock, does failure on the lock-pick attempt mean the party can't then try other things - bash the door down, cast Warp Wood or Shrink on it, pop it off its hinges, etc. -&nbsp; in order to achieve the same goal?Except nothing happens does defeat, at least temporarily, just about any goal that involves something happening.&nbsp; What it doesn't always do is give the players an obvious next move and-or problem to deal with - they have to come up with that on their own; and forcing them to come up with the next move on their own is fine with me.&nbsp; As in:&quot;So your lock-picking attempt failed - you ain't getting through it that way - and the door is still closed.&nbsp; Now what do you do?&quot;We'll probably disagree on this forever. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Lanefan, post: 9035158, member: 29398"] Defeated once and for all, or defeated until-unless a different in-fiction approach is tried? Or put another way, must that defeat be permanent or is it merely a here-and-now defeat that can maybe be overcome later? There's a big difference. For example, if the goal is to get safely through the door and the action declaration is to pick the lock, does failure on the lock-pick attempt mean the party can't then try other things - bash the door down, cast [I]Warp Wood[/I] or [I]Shrink[/I] on it, pop it off its hinges, etc. - in order to achieve the same goal? Except [I]nothing happens[/I] [B]does[/B] defeat, at least temporarily, just about any goal that involves something happening. What it doesn't always do is give the players an obvious next move and-or problem to deal with - they have to come up with that on their own; and forcing them to come up with the next move on their own is fine with me. As in: "So your lock-picking attempt failed - you ain't getting through it that way - and the door is still closed. Now what do you do?" We'll probably disagree on this forever. :) [/QUOTE]

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