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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9037993" data-attributes="member: 82106">I don't think I disagree with any of the basic ideas presented, but I guess I'm not sure I like the whole label &quot;Rule 0 GM/Game&quot; as I don't think its really related directly to rule 0. A game could be trad/classic and flat out state that the ultimate rules authority is a vote of the table, and it wouldn't change that the source of the fiction is the GM, with the mapping of fiction to agenda being entirely in the GM's hands.Yeah, the problem with such play IMHO is that dumping responsibility for driving play onto the players, but then not giving them anything to build that on, and keeping all the fiction as a secret GM resource, is simply &quot;The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast.&quot; You cannot be a protagonist in a story where you have no control over the fiction! Even if you can set out in any map direction (or equivalents) that doesn't help as whatever you find is simply random to the player, it isn't associated with any agenda or character-originating need/want. You want revenge on the orcs for the murder of your family, but all you run into are goblins... Now, one partial solution is for the GM to rewrite everyone's backstories and take charge of the elements which form these motives in the first place, and essentially make the characters her own. That would align the PCs to what they will discover, and make it relevant to them, but needless to say it probably won't leave a lot of the PLAYERS very satisfied! I mean, only if the GM is really good at creating stories which they want to play. It might work for a few superstar GMs.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9037993, member: 82106"] I don't think I disagree with any of the basic ideas presented, but I guess I'm not sure I like the whole label "Rule 0 GM/Game" as I don't think its really related directly to rule 0. A game could be trad/classic and flat out state that the ultimate rules authority is a vote of the table, and it wouldn't change that the source of the fiction is the GM, with the mapping of fiction to agenda being entirely in the GM's hands. Yeah, the problem with such play IMHO is that dumping responsibility for driving play onto the players, but then not giving them anything to build that on, and keeping all the fiction as a secret GM resource, is simply "The Impossible Thing Before Breakfast." You cannot be a protagonist in a story where you have no control over the fiction! Even if you can set out in any map direction (or equivalents) that doesn't help as whatever you find is simply random to the player, it isn't associated with any agenda or character-originating need/want. You want revenge on the orcs for the murder of your family, but all you run into are goblins... Now, one partial solution is for the GM to rewrite everyone's backstories and take charge of the elements which form these motives in the first place, and essentially make the characters her own. That would align the PCs to what they will discover, and make it relevant to them, but needless to say it probably won't leave a lot of the PLAYERS very satisfied! I mean, only if the GM is really good at creating stories which they want to play. It might work for a few superstar GMs. [/QUOTE]

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