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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9039972" data-attributes="member: 71699">For me the intuition is that the real world contains events and objects that give no regard to my involvement or interest in them; that don't follow a dramatic pattern. How I feel about those things, whether I would or would not they were as they are, whether they rise action toward a climax, does not impinge on them.I wouldn't say it was necessarily the case that a game world constructed around dramatic needs couldn't be more realistic in respects than some other game world. Still it would be less realistic to the extent that it lacks truths that are independent of the characters.This is in a sense to do with feelings about what &quot;real&quot; means. I won't dive into that... you're probably aware of some of the predominant takes on it. Only summarise by saying that what I take [USER=23751]@Maxperson[/USER] to be getting at is that there would be world-truths that are independent of or external to character-related dramatic needs.One way for such truths to exist is for a non-player referee to adopt them from a game text, another way is they architect them, another could be they run through a procedure for generating them. This last is interesting to me - and of course has appeared in many &quot;sim&quot; games - because it makes some truths independent of every single person at the table. I'm also interested in setups where truths external to one player are just those controlled by another player.Anyway, whether I've explained it successfully above or not, I have in mind a definition of &quot;real&quot;, and that definition requires that for a world fact to be a realistic fact from the point of view of a character it must be external to and capable of being disinterested in that character. I'm agnostic on how those external facts are produced and controlled. As I imply above, some &quot;realistic&quot; facts could well be ones driving dramatic play: the emergence of dramatic moments in uncaring worlds is often described as a specific joy of these modes of play.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9039972, member: 71699"] For me the intuition is that the real world contains events and objects that give no regard to my involvement or interest in them; that don't follow a dramatic pattern. How I feel about those things, whether I would or would not they were as they are, whether they rise action toward a climax, does not impinge on them. I wouldn't say it was necessarily the case that a game world constructed around dramatic needs couldn't be more realistic in respects than some other game world. Still it would be less realistic to the extent that it lacks truths that are independent of the characters. This is in a sense to do with feelings about what "real" means. I won't dive into that... you're probably aware of some of the predominant takes on it. Only summarise by saying that what I take [USER=23751]@Maxperson[/USER] to be getting at is that there would be world-truths that are independent of or external to character-related dramatic needs. One way for such truths to exist is for a non-player referee to adopt them from a game text, another way is they architect them, another could be they run through a procedure for generating them. This last is interesting to me - and of course has appeared in many "sim" games - because it makes some truths independent of every single person at the table. I'm also interested in setups where truths external to one player are just those controlled by another player. Anyway, whether I've explained it successfully above or not, I have in mind a definition of "real", and that definition requires that for a world fact to be a realistic fact from the point of view of a character it must be external to and capable of being disinterested in that character. I'm agnostic on how those external facts are produced and controlled. As I imply above, some "realistic" facts could well be ones driving dramatic play: the emergence of dramatic moments in uncaring worlds is often described as a specific joy of these modes of play. [/QUOTE]

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