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<blockquote data-quote="aramis erak" data-source="post: 9042244" data-attributes="member: 6779310"><p>Here's the thing...</p><p>The CT CG process is low choice. And I can cite the process from memory from 40 years of at least occasional, and over 5 years of campaigns... </p><p>RAW:</p><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">roll atts, in sequence. <u>Str</u>, <u>Dex</u>, <u>End</u>, <u>Int</u>, <u>Edu</u>, <u>Soc</u></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">pick <strong>service</strong> (career) to <em>attempt to enter</em>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>roll </u>for entry.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">on scuccess, go to 5</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">on fail, go to 4</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>roll</u> for service drafted into</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>Roll </u>term's survival<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">on success, gain 1 skill roll<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if term1, gain a second skill</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if term 1, check for automatic service skills.</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">on fail, go to 1</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if not a term 1 draftee nor already commissioned, nor in a rankless career, <u>roll</u>for commission<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">on success, gain rank 1 (commission) and 1 skill roll<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">check for automatic skills for rank 1 (which are additional to the roll)</li> </ol></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if commissioned and not maximum rank and not in a rankless career, roll for promotion<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">on success, gain +1 rank and 1 skill roll<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">check for service automatic skills for current rank.</li> </ol></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">for each skill roll, <ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">choose one of the <strong>skill tables</strong><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">If education 8+, all four are available</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if Education 7-, only the first three are available</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">it is unclear to me whether prior rolls this term unlock table 4 for this term. I allow it. Some don't.</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>roll </u>1d</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">take the indicated skill<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Cascades</strong> if that skill is <u>vehicle</u>, <u>gun combat</u>, or <u>blade combat</u>, (or, if using S4, the additional cascades) pick the skill from the appropriate list.</li> </ol></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>Roll</u> Aging Saves if term 4+ </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>Roll </u>for reenlistment<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if nat 12, go back to 5.0</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if term < 7 and success but not nat 12, choose between <strong>Muster Out or stay in</strong><ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">go back to 5.0 </li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">go on to 11</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if term > 7, go on to 11.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if failed, go on to 11</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">figure total mustering out rolls<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">1 per term</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">additional for rank<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">R1 or R2, 1 roll</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">R3 or R4, 2 rolls</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">R5 or R6, 3 rolls</li> </ol></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">make the rolls<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">for each roll, Choose <strong>Cash or Benefits</strong>.<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">no more than 3 benefits rolls can only be applied to the cash table.</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><u>roll</u>on that table<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">characters with rank 5 or 6 choose whether or not to <strong>apply their +1</strong> <em>before rolling</em> on the material benefits table</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">characters with gambling skill or who have retired choose <em>before rolling</em> whether to <strong>apply a +1</strong> to the rolls on the cash table</li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">resolve attribute gains</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">resolve weapon benefits<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if more than 1, choose whether the 2nd and later are <strong>additional weapons or skill in previously obtained weapons</strong></li> </ol></li> </ol></li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if 5+ terms completed, note retirement pay.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>Name </strong>the character.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">if need be, name the <strong>ship</strong>.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol"><strong>purchase additional starting gear</strong></li> </ol><p>I've bolded all the choice points, and underlined the actual points for dice rolls. More is defined by random than by rolling.</p><p>Now, compared to then-current (1977) D&D, that was a lot of choice. But, at the same point, one didn't pick one's skills, merely affected the odds of which they got by table choices. The choice is barely meaningful.</p><p>RAP, many allowed rolling the skill choice die then picking the table, making the choice very meaningful. </p><p></p><p>D&D OE character gen:</p><p>Roll 6 atts in sequence (which order was always a controversy in my circles due to the exemplar in Vol 1 p 10)</p><p style="margin-left: 20px">Sequence a: <u>STR</u> <u>INT</u> <u>WIS</u> <u>CON</u> <u>DEX</u> <u>CHA</u> (order in text)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Sequence b: STR CON INT DEX WIS CHA (reading card in columns)</p> <p style="margin-left: 20px">Sequence c: STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA (essentially, Traveller order)</p><p>Roll for starting <u>cash</u></p><p>Choose <strong>race</strong></p><p>Choose <strong>class</strong> (unless demihuman - elves per unexpanded OE are always W/M duals, while halflings and dwarves are only fighting men)</p><p>Roll <strong>HP.</strong></p><p>choose <strong>Alignment</strong></p><p>choose <strong>Languages</strong></p><p>if need be, <strong>Starting Spells</strong>.</p><p>purchase <strong>starting gear</strong></p><p>One can kind of roleplay the choices in Traveller. The iteration is where the choices matter for an RP context, but for most, it's mechanistic during, and then post-generation, a narrative is devised. It's definitely a form of play of Traveller, but whether it's RP varies by individual. (Says the guy who random-rolled some NPCs wed night while running a CT/MT hybrid.)</p><p>The choices in D&D are far fewer, but only because of iteration. The RP can start in char gen... with class choice. (demi-humans don't get to make that choice until Sup 1 adds thieves. Note that class choice is often mechanistic (either due to attribute requirements or race choice); Languages and Alignment are also race constrained, starting spells are only for certain classes. The first that's really an RP choice is starting gear. Given the rules, the real munchkins spend 2 GP on starting weapons: dagger and spear ... "But wait, Daggers cost 3!" Sure... but... </p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">buy two spears...</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">use spear 1 to chop down spear 2 to a dagger.</li> </ul><p>As I said, I was talking munchkins. (and yes, I've done that as a player, and seen other players try that. </p><p>Once players used the alternate damage by weapon type, equipment went from the RP sphere to mixed RP and Mechanistic.</p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p><strong><span style="color: rgb(147, 101, 184)">TLDR: </span></strong></p><p><strong>Classic Traveller has less meaningful choice than it seems. </strong></p><p><strong>D&D can support very limited RP in char gen, </strong>but it's strongest before the change to damage by weapon type.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="aramis erak, post: 9042244, member: 6779310"] Here's the thing... The CT CG process is low choice. And I can cite the process from memory from 40 years of at least occasional, and over 5 years of campaigns... RAW: [LIST=1] [*]roll atts, in sequence. [U]Str[/U], [U]Dex[/U], [U]End[/U], [U]Int[/U], [U]Edu[/U], [U]Soc[/U] [*]pick [B]service[/B] (career) to [I]attempt to enter[/I]. [*][U]roll [/U]for entry. [LIST=1] [*]on scuccess, go to 5 [*]on fail, go to 4 [/LIST] [*][U]roll[/U] for service drafted into [*][U]Roll [/U]term's survival [LIST=1] [*]on success, gain 1 skill roll [LIST=1] [*]if term1, gain a second skill [*]if term 1, check for automatic service skills. [/LIST] [*]on fail, go to 1 [/LIST] [*]if not a term 1 draftee nor already commissioned, nor in a rankless career, [U]roll[/U]for commission [LIST=1] [*]on success, gain rank 1 (commission) and 1 skill roll [LIST=1] [*]check for automatic skills for rank 1 (which are additional to the roll) [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]if commissioned and not maximum rank and not in a rankless career, roll for promotion [LIST=1] [*]on success, gain +1 rank and 1 skill roll [LIST=1] [*]check for service automatic skills for current rank. [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]for each skill roll, [LIST=1] [*]choose one of the [B]skill tables[/B] [LIST=1] [*]If education 8+, all four are available [*]if Education 7-, only the first three are available [*]it is unclear to me whether prior rolls this term unlock table 4 for this term. I allow it. Some don't. [/LIST] [*][U]roll [/U]1d [*]take the indicated skill [LIST=1] [*][B]Cascades[/B] if that skill is [U]vehicle[/U], [U]gun combat[/U], or [U]blade combat[/U], (or, if using S4, the additional cascades) pick the skill from the appropriate list. [/LIST] [/LIST] [*][U]Roll[/U] Aging Saves if term 4+ [*][U]Roll [/U]for reenlistment [LIST=1] [*]if nat 12, go back to 5.0 [*]if term < 7 and success but not nat 12, choose between [B]Muster Out or stay in[/B] [LIST=1] [*]go back to 5.0 [*]go on to 11 [/LIST] [*]if term > 7, go on to 11. [*]if failed, go on to 11 [/LIST] [*]figure total mustering out rolls [LIST=1] [*]1 per term [*]additional for rank [LIST=1] [*]R1 or R2, 1 roll [*]R3 or R4, 2 rolls [*]R5 or R6, 3 rolls [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]make the rolls [LIST=1] [*]for each roll, Choose [B]Cash or Benefits[/B]. [LIST=1] [*]no more than 3 benefits rolls can only be applied to the cash table. [/LIST] [*][U]roll[/U]on that table [LIST=1] [*]characters with rank 5 or 6 choose whether or not to [B]apply their +1[/B] [I]before rolling[/I] on the material benefits table [*]characters with gambling skill or who have retired choose [I]before rolling[/I] whether to [B]apply a +1[/B] to the rolls on the cash table [/LIST] [*]resolve attribute gains [*]resolve weapon benefits [LIST=1] [*]if more than 1, choose whether the 2nd and later are [B]additional weapons or skill in previously obtained weapons[/B] [/LIST] [/LIST] [*]if 5+ terms completed, note retirement pay. [*][B]Name [/B]the character. [*]if need be, name the [B]ship[/B]. [*][B]purchase additional starting gear[/B] [/LIST] I've bolded all the choice points, and underlined the actual points for dice rolls. More is defined by random than by rolling. Now, compared to then-current (1977) D&D, that was a lot of choice. But, at the same point, one didn't pick one's skills, merely affected the odds of which they got by table choices. The choice is barely meaningful. RAP, many allowed rolling the skill choice die then picking the table, making the choice very meaningful. D&D OE character gen: Roll 6 atts in sequence (which order was always a controversy in my circles due to the exemplar in Vol 1 p 10) [INDENT]Sequence a: [U]STR[/U] [U]INT[/U] [U]WIS[/U] [U]CON[/U] [U]DEX[/U] [U]CHA[/U] (order in text)[/INDENT] [INDENT]Sequence b: STR CON INT DEX WIS CHA (reading card in columns)[/INDENT] [INDENT]Sequence c: STR DEX CON INT WIS CHA (essentially, Traveller order)[/INDENT] Roll for starting [U]cash[/U] Choose [B]race[/B] Choose [B]class[/B] (unless demihuman - elves per unexpanded OE are always W/M duals, while halflings and dwarves are only fighting men) Roll [B]HP.[/B] choose [B]Alignment[/B] choose [B]Languages[/B] if need be, [B]Starting Spells[/B]. purchase [B]starting gear[/B] One can kind of roleplay the choices in Traveller. The iteration is where the choices matter for an RP context, but for most, it's mechanistic during, and then post-generation, a narrative is devised. It's definitely a form of play of Traveller, but whether it's RP varies by individual. (Says the guy who random-rolled some NPCs wed night while running a CT/MT hybrid.) The choices in D&D are far fewer, but only because of iteration. The RP can start in char gen... with class choice. (demi-humans don't get to make that choice until Sup 1 adds thieves. Note that class choice is often mechanistic (either due to attribute requirements or race choice); Languages and Alignment are also race constrained, starting spells are only for certain classes. The first that's really an RP choice is starting gear. Given the rules, the real munchkins spend 2 GP on starting weapons: dagger and spear ... "But wait, Daggers cost 3!" Sure... but... [LIST] [*]buy two spears... [*]use spear 1 to chop down spear 2 to a dagger. [/LIST] As I said, I was talking munchkins. (and yes, I've done that as a player, and seen other players try that. Once players used the alternate damage by weapon type, equipment went from the RP sphere to mixed RP and Mechanistic. [HR][/HR] [B][COLOR=rgb(147, 101, 184)]TLDR: [/COLOR] Classic Traveller has less meaningful choice than it seems. D&D can support very limited RP in char gen, [/B]but it's strongest before the change to damage by weapon type. [/QUOTE]
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