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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Fenris-77" data-source="post: 9043993" data-attributes="member: 6993955">Without reading the rest of the downstream replies I have a thought here. On a different forum I interact with rather a lot of old school simulationist type RPG folks. I think that the stakes here are very much about the word simulationist, and thus from there simulation generally. The folks in question, and I love and respect all of them, have a pretty narrow and specific idea of what is being simulated and a very specific idea again from there, about what some version of the idea of 'immersion' means in light of that brand of simulation. To get somewhat granular, that brand of simulation doesn't, for example, involve metacurrency of any kind, nor does it involve abstractions when it comes to resources. Generally it tends to model the very old fashioned separation of church and state in terms of agency, where the player runs their character and the GM runs everything else, full stop. Full disclosure, I played like that, perhaps not exclusively, but regularly, for a very long time. I have fond memories of those games an the people I played with. However, I know more about different games now, I've played more games now, and perhaps most importantly for this discussion, I have a much better grasp of RPG design now that I used to.To take the path less trodden, I would suggest that the idea of simulation, especially if we can let the ghosts of the Forge rest in peace, is open to more interpretations than just the one I outline above. Frankly, I find the lighter games I play now, the ones that have metacurrencies of various sorts, the ones that have abstractions to ease resource management, and the ones that have newfangled ideas like success with consequences to be just as 'immersive' as those other games, and to extend from there, if I may, just as good at 'simulating' various collections of genres and tropes. What I find very liberating is that I no longer approach my RPG hobby as something that involves my ego, online or not, or any notion of 'right play' or 'correct definition'. I play, or have played, and probably will play, just about every sort of game, and I enjoy them all. I think it's more useful to look for similarities and overlaps than to continue arguing about which pointless trive one wants to belong to.</blockquote>

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