Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9053036" data-attributes="member: 71699">In this post I aim to leverage loverdrive's set of everything possible in a roleplaying game to compare dramatist and simulationist play.The exact kinds and qualities of elements in E has thus far been left vague: to make E manageable I assume that each possibility is assigned a simple identity. That can then be represented E(p1,p2, ...) Subsets of E can then readily include<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">D containing all dramatist possibilities D(d1, d2, ...)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">P containing all simulationist possibilities P(p1, p2, ...)</li> </ul>I believe folk accept both these sets have contents, even if there is debate about the qualities of those contents. Posters have argued for the intersection to also have contents i.e. some dramatist possibilities are simulationist. That can be put as saying that dramatic possibilities can also be plausible (hence the set is labelled P). I believe folk accept that D and P are different sets, meaning that each contains some elements not found in the other.I contend that for each element in D there is some set of possibilities that it exists in virtue of, and the same for P. So that E also contains subsets like this<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">d1(b1, b2, ...)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">d2(b2, b3, ...)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">p1(b3, b4, ...)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">p2(b4, b5, ...)</li> </ul>What makes a possibility a member of such a subset is its fit to some mapping principle(s) or function(s) from it to the possibility that has it as a basis (hence such elements are labelled b). For the sake of this example, the subsets contain all and any elements that can form a basis of the possibility, whether individually or collectively. Illustratively, the possibilities d2 and p1 can therefore fall in the intersection of D and P.Dramatist play could include d1, d2, and p1; and p2 in moments of deviation from its normal principles. A parallel observation can be made of simulationist play. Thus the two modes are not made distinct through absolutes (the one absolutely avoiding anything found in the other) but in terms of normal principles and propensities. The distributions of possibities found in sessions of each mode are, statistically, significantly distinct.An intuition I hope to drive with the outline above is that looking for absolutely undifferentiated possibilities is mistaken and unnecessary. A non-empty intersection between D and P does not make them one and the same set! Over all of E every possible subset like d1, d2, p1, p2 exists, and the sets of those subsets will - like D and P - be both distinct and intersecting.The reasoning above can be resisted in various ways, for example by saying that<ol> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">there are no dramatist principles (D is empty)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">there are no simulationist principles (P is empty)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">there are D and P principles, but they are used equally often in all modes of play (so the resultant play can't be differentiated)</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ol">every D principle is also a P principle (or to put it another way, every basis element has suitable qualities to fit both D and P)</li> </ol>Arguments have been made in the direction of 3 and 4, and it would be open to their proponents to make their claims strong enough to quash the suggested intuition. Notwithstanding, I have shown that proponents of each mode can resist being held to proving every reified possibility to be distinct: that's not a necessary basis for distinctive modes. All that is required are distinguishable qualities that - over E - result in distinct distributions of possibilities.Illustrative distinguishable qualities of simulationist principles are to be uncaring of player character goals and of narrative arcs, giving way to caring about your references - and I suppose conjectures - and experiencing them through inhabitation. I would recommend reading this <a href="https://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/isabout/2020/05/14/observations-on-gns-simulationism/" target="_blank">powerful up to date explanation of simulationism</a>.</blockquote>

Verification