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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9073859" data-attributes="member: 71699">On first reading I missed that your last (quite a good post) also lays out an argument supporting <a href="https://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/isabout/2020/05/14/observations-on-gns-simulationism/" target="_blank">Eero Tuovinen's observations</a>.Put without adornment, &quot;internal causes are king&quot; is on the side of methods, i.e. that &quot;outcomes are generated by reference to them.&quot; Simulationism is not done for the sake of making internal causes king.The purposes or agenda of simulationism is (or is in the neighbourhood of) Tuovinen's proposedI put more weight on &quot;appreciation&quot; than &quot;understanding&quot; in that sentence, taking the former to have emotive or immersive qualities, and because I feel that &quot;the sort of scholarly understanding of Exploration&quot; (as one poster put it) implied by &quot;understanding&quot;, is not every simulationist's cup of tea. A respondent to Tuovinen characterised &quot;the &quot;less overt nature of Sim satisfaction&quot; as &quot;In the case of Subjective Experience/Immersion it’s largely internal&quot;. Tuovinen identifies its two facets: the internal experience (how I feel when I am doing simulationism well) and the internal change (the realisations that I will keep with me.)Tuovinen is finally addressing purposes, not methods. Edwards produced a useful analysis of simulationism from the perspective of a person who had no empathy with it: in a sort of - naming your enemy - project. Notwithstanding, simulationism and narrativism are found to be not necessarily in conflict. When I play Bushido and experience how I feel when a higher-ranked character forces me to do something dishonourable (both the forcing and the dishonour are covered by mechanics) well, isn't that readily related to dramatic themes? Another example of what you called attention to (Dwarven Greed, Elven Grief, Samurai Honour). RuneQuest contains an abundance of similarly dramatic themes embodied in world, world-laws, and rules. (RQ literally has heroquests!)A potential source of conflicts that deserves further examination, may be those cases where a group is forced to choose between a player's authorship in accord with dramatic themes that matter to them, and internal causes that matter to the world. I think that simulationism can't give up prioritising the latter.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9073859, member: 71699"] On first reading I missed that your last (quite a good post) also lays out an argument supporting [URL='https://www.arkenstonepublishing.net/isabout/2020/05/14/observations-on-gns-simulationism/']Eero Tuovinen's observations[/URL]. Put without adornment, "internal causes are king" is on the side of methods, i.e. that "outcomes are generated by reference to them." Simulationism is not done for the sake of making internal causes king. The purposes or agenda of simulationism is (or is in the neighbourhood of) Tuovinen's proposed I put more weight on "appreciation" than "understanding" in that sentence, taking the former to have emotive or immersive qualities, and because I feel that "the sort of scholarly understanding of Exploration" (as one poster put it) implied by "understanding", is not every simulationist's cup of tea. A respondent to Tuovinen characterised "the "less overt nature of Sim satisfaction" as "In the case of Subjective Experience/Immersion it’s largely internal". Tuovinen identifies its two facets: the internal experience (how I feel when I am doing simulationism well) and the internal change (the realisations that I will keep with me.) Tuovinen is finally addressing purposes, not methods. Edwards produced a useful analysis of simulationism from the perspective of a person who had no empathy with it: in a sort of - naming your enemy - project. Notwithstanding, simulationism and narrativism are found to be not necessarily in conflict. When I play Bushido and experience how I feel when a higher-ranked character forces me to do something dishonourable (both the forcing and the dishonour are covered by mechanics) well, isn't that readily related to dramatic themes? Another example of what you called attention to (Dwarven Greed, Elven Grief, Samurai Honour). RuneQuest contains an abundance of similarly dramatic themes embodied in world, world-laws, and rules. (RQ literally has heroquests!) A potential source of conflicts that deserves further examination, may be those cases where a group is forced to choose between a player's authorship in accord with dramatic themes that matter to them, and internal causes that matter to the world. I think that simulationism can't give up prioritising the latter. [/QUOTE]

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