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<blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 9256815" data-attributes="member: 82106">They're not addressed AT ALL. You must be initiated into the club and taught the rules. Its a thing, I don't want to put it down, but you can't 'publish' these games, and to say &quot;I play Messerspiel&quot; is essentially an empty statement, as there's no such game. But my point is there is effectively nothing included in them. Sure, Messerspiel documents a way to possibly roll some dice. Given that this could be used for basically any purpose whatsoever that involves the concept of a character and a story its basically saying nothing in game terms at all. I guess it says &quot;maybe you should roll dice sometimes&quot; but that's it. I guess my position is that there comes a point where the rules are so incomplete that they aren't even rules anymore and nothing can be said about them. I'd contrast this with PACE, which has JUST a bit more to it, a way of defining character attributes and a (fairly simple but complete) structure for posing and resolving conflicts using those attributes. It has a LOT more of the character of a game, and I think it would be fair to say &quot;We're playing PACE&quot; although that still covers a lot of ground.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="AbdulAlhazred, post: 9256815, member: 82106"] They're not addressed AT ALL. You must be initiated into the club and taught the rules. Its a thing, I don't want to put it down, but you can't 'publish' these games, and to say "I play Messerspiel" is essentially an empty statement, as there's no such game. But my point is there is effectively nothing included in them. Sure, Messerspiel documents a way to possibly roll some dice. Given that this could be used for basically any purpose whatsoever that involves the concept of a character and a story its basically saying nothing in game terms at all. I guess it says "maybe you should roll dice sometimes" but that's it. I guess my position is that there comes a point where the rules are so incomplete that they aren't even rules anymore and nothing can be said about them. I'd contrast this with PACE, which has JUST a bit more to it, a way of defining character attributes and a (fairly simple but complete) structure for posing and resolving conflicts using those attributes. It has a LOT more of the character of a game, and I think it would be fair to say "We're playing PACE" although that still covers a lot of ground. [/QUOTE]

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