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<blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9259224" data-attributes="member: 71699">Yes. In fact my contention leans on the premise that the set principles() is vast or limitless.Me neither, it's not clearly defined anywhere. Is it a page count? Is Cthulhu Dark ultralight, or is it just a TTRPG game text? What about Messerspiel. Still, I observe (and have heard designers articulate) an intent to write a &quot;one-page-RPG&quot;, &quot;ultra-lite-RPG&quot;, etc. We lack any agreed definition of what collection of elements would make a TTRPG &quot;complete&quot; and if we had one, that still might not define what to count as &quot;ultra-light&quot;. I use it to mean a short TTRPG game text that uses few words and leaves much up to the group: it is highly selective about what it gives normative-force... leaving everything unwritten other than what the designer sees as most essential. Relying on group norms of play - often learned from other game texts - to do the rest of the work.As I already noted above, I accept that no one here knows exactly what principles Vincent would have counted, and therefore I have established my principlesB and have provided examples. When I speak of principles going forward, I am speaking of principlesB - the broad set the extends beyond what [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] believes Vincent claimed for freeform (which should be caveated just as you say.)One observation is that one can simply say that any principles that would have an effect similar to a mechanic, would make the play not freeform. I have explained already how I resist that argument (on the grounds that norms with a similar effect are already in play.)Agreed.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="clearstream, post: 9259224, member: 71699"] Yes. In fact my contention leans on the premise that the set principles() is vast or limitless. Me neither, it's not clearly defined anywhere. Is it a page count? Is Cthulhu Dark ultralight, or is it just a TTRPG game text? What about Messerspiel. Still, I observe (and have heard designers articulate) an intent to write a "one-page-RPG", "ultra-lite-RPG", etc. We lack any agreed definition of what collection of elements would make a TTRPG "complete" and if we had one, that still might not define what to count as "ultra-light". I use it to mean a short TTRPG game text that uses few words and leaves much up to the group: it is highly selective about what it gives normative-force... leaving everything unwritten other than what the designer sees as most essential. Relying on group norms of play - often learned from other game texts - to do the rest of the work. As I already noted above, I accept that no one here knows exactly what principles Vincent would have counted, and therefore I have established my principlesB and have provided examples. When I speak of principles going forward, I am speaking of principlesB - the broad set the extends beyond what [USER=42582]@pemerton[/USER] believes Vincent claimed for freeform (which should be caveated just as you say.) One observation is that one can simply say that any principles that would have an effect similar to a mechanic, would make the play not freeform. I have explained already how I resist that argument (on the grounds that norms with a similar effect are [I]already [/I]in play.) Agreed. [/QUOTE]

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