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Message: <blockquote data-quote="clearstream" data-source="post: 9263853" data-attributes="member: 71699">Yes. As much as I see players engaging with TTRPG as simultaneously author / audience, I see GMs engaging as author / audience / referee. Players additionally make themselves subject to the game (in the Sicartian sense.) Even with that sketched out there are limitless ways to instantiate it.Tautologically, players are those who play the game. That's what I meant about referee kicking the ball. Doing so would make them a player, which in the domain of sports is often seen as a transgression, but think about the blackjack dealer who draws a hand and in a sense plays it. Even when doing something comparable (e.g. controlling adversaries), just like the blackjack dealer some part of GM operates under different rules and principles from players.Does it matter if the unwelcome/unwanted is unwelcome/unwanted to GM? Suppose in [USER=82106]@AbdulAlhazred[/USER]'s <a href="https://www.enworld.org/threads/why-do-rpgs-have-rules.697430/post-9262320" target="_blank">#2,647</a> example, that the GM were indifferent to the Pale Hunter spiriting away all four of the hunters and pitiless treatment of Rennon's Son (which I take to be unwelcome.) How would that matter? Ought a referee to count awarding a try welcome and a last minute penalty unwelcome? Their "impartial" adjudication requires them to procure the unwelcome/unwanted, whether or not they find it unwelcome/unwanted. A referee does not make themselves subject to the game in the same way that players do.*But like a blackjack dealer, TTRPG GM has to make moves in the game. An unimpeachable blackjack dealer is impartial to whether they win the hand (unwelcome to players) or lose the hand (welcome to players.) So coming at last to my question: when you say youDoes that mean you prefer them to not only kick the ball, but also have a stake in whether it goes between the goalposts? That is to say, would you adhere to Bakers "to everyone at the table" in the strong sense of unwelcome/unwanted to everyone including GM as a player? Where GM is not a player, is it unwelcome to them in a different way from players or perhaps not necessarily unwelcome at all?*I'm implying here that unwelcome/unwanted counts only from the perspective of those who have made themselves subject to game. I see that to be connected with your notions on unwelcome/unwanted equating to conflict. While GM and players may both take parts in conflicts, only those subject to the game count the outcomes welcome or unwelcome.</blockquote>

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