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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pming" data-source="post: 6749127" data-attributes="member: 45197">Hiya.I just turned 46 and I've been playing since I was 10...so It looks like we have the same amount of gaming experience. In real life I'm managed teams of people, trained people, studied programming, digital design and 3d animation, and I've even worked as a night auditor for a major hotel here where I live. I'm not seeing how any of this is relevant...? I guess the only thing we can both agree on here is that we are quickly heading into the whole "Old dog, new tricks" thing...you believe your stuff, I believe mine, and they seem to be different enough that the best we can probably hope to come to is "Fair enough. I'll keep on playing my way, and you keep on playing your way". I'm happy with that. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />And neither would I. However, that was not my intent, if that is what you got out of it. My players range in age from 13 to 45, with most in their late 30's. They, as far as I know, have never felt "treated as an irresponsible adolescent". That's not to say they haven't disagreed with me on occasion, nor is it to say we have never come to a point where something in a game or campaign pretty much "ended it" (maybe two or three times over the last 20+ years or so...30+ for some of the players)...and we start a new campaign or change systems for a bit.I'm sorry if you felt insulted by my comments. My intent was to indicate that a lot of players (typically younger...not hard to find when you're as old an crotchety as we are! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> ) use being disallowed something in a game as some sort of direct attack against 'their fun'. It's like they find that some particular item, spell, race, class, rule, etc isn't in use or is interpreted differently and they suddenly think the DM has it in for them. I have had "try out" players who didn't make the cut because of this. One young woman (late 20's I think) joined. Made a character (for Dark Dungeons; which she knew we were playing), and then tried to min/max the hell out her Fighter. She played one session then told another player to tell me she wasn't coming back. She said that she "didn't like the system". When I pressed the player for more info, it turned out that her friend (the try out player) couldn't "use Feats like 3e and be able to do two or three times as much damage as her DD Fighter was dishing out"). I guess this guest-player pretty much decided that the system, and I (because I had to keep saying 'no' to her asking for 3e stuff to be "imported" into our campaign just for her), was boring and 'made no sense'. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f635.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt="o_O" title="Er... what?    o_O"  data-smilie="12"data-shortname="o_O" /> That was a fairly minor example of the type of thing I've encountered in my experience. She obviously wanted something different from the game and was incapable of honestly giving a different style of play a serious try. She had decided from the get go what she wanted...and, being denied that, felt the system and my DM'ing was "bad".No, you don't need hand holding. You do, however, need to be informed of what rules are or aren't being used (and the general play style of the DM and group). If you belly up to my table and start making your character, with plans of adding a couple levels of Fighter, Sorcerer and maybe Warlock to your Cleric, and then find out I don't allow MC'ing...you'd be a bit annoyed. Maybe not that I don't allow MC'ing, but that I didn't "tell you"...even though the rules for Multiclassing are OPTIONAL. If you then decided to just stick with a human Valor Bard and then find out I don't use the Variant Human OPTION, nor do I use Feats (again, OPTIONAL), you may get even more annoyed that I didn't tell you. So you decide, "Screw it. I'll make a dwarven Fighter"...and then find out that I use a different house-rule about how fast one heals...well, more annoyance.I think you'd be able to handle it better than a lot of other players I've seen. I don't think it'd even get that far. I'm sure you'd ask right off the bat if X, Y or Z were being used, and if there was a house-rules print out or something (I know I do/would).The "reasoning" behind wanting to MC is irrelevant to me. I just don't like how the MC rules work. I don't think they make sense, from a continuation of campaign side of things in particular. I don't like a lot of things about it...so, IMC, I don't use them.That's good to hear, son. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> But IMC a player never has to worry about those consequences...because I don't like or use MC'ing. And it's honestly not so much about the player living with the consequences as the DM (me) having to live with them (and everyone else at the table who doesn't use MC'ing). If you make a reasonable character with pluses and minuses, good stuff and bad, all wrapped up in a juicy, flavourful RP blanket...there is the potential for three players to min/max the system with almost all pluses and no minuses, focused solely on creating some sort of uber-combo that makes his 3/4 Rogue/Warlock significantly stronger than a single classed Rogue 7 or Warlock 7, with almost *no* RP goodness. Suddenly everyone else at the table is looking at their 7th level character and thinking Wow. I suck compared to the Rogue/Warlock...and he's only got level 3 and 4 stuff...Anyway, sorry if you felt personally insulted or talked down to. Not my intent. I don't like MC'ing as a rule in the game because of how it works game-mechanics wise, so it's not allowed in my game. Enjoy all the MC'ing you want in yours. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />^_^Paul L. Ming</blockquote>

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